Avoid any Hint...

Ed,

I do understand your rationale but must encourage you to have a sleep study if sleep apnea is a possible health issue for you. As one who travels the world with a CPAP machine, I can't begin to tell you the difference it's made to my sleep and that of my dear wife, Imbi. (I no longer snore or stop breathing for extended periods whilst sleeping or attempting to.)

Perhaps we both should come under the care of the Jollyblogger, who's lost 55 lbs and is keeping the weight off off.

Good counsel, Bill.

I will reschedule for sure. Just at a clinic with two staff members.

Ed

I remember years ago being encouraged by similar stories of how Billy Graham followed many of these same principles.

If making sure we do not give a cause to diminish our reputation is important, so too is remember the Grace of Christ. Making ones personal convictions into a "Thou Shalt Not.." list does not fit well with the instructions in Galatians.

Joe, I do not see anything wrong with a "Thou Shalt Not..." list. In fact, I would encourage it if it helps to keeping your from getting into trouble. Remember the Grace of Christ, but Jesus also said that if we love him, we will obey his commands. And I would consider personal convictions fall under that.

A wise man you are.

odd... but I would not consider elevating personal convictions to the level of biblical command as a function of grace. Read the entire letter to the Galatian churches and consider Paul's teaching on the Law vs. Grace.

Having been freed from the Law, why would you want to create a new one?

Joe and Matt, thanks... but let's move on from Galatians (did I just say that?).

These are church policies, not laws. The "thou shalt not" is tonuge-in-cheek.

I have lots of policies at the church... like, pastors shall not sign checks... staff shall not spend over $X without approval... pastors shall not do dumb things... etc., etc.

Ed,
I too had a sleep test prior to some major throat surgery. I was fortunate that there were two staff and at least six other people there that night (in different rooms). Please follow through and get the sleep test - you will be glad you did. I cannot begin to tell you how much better I felt after my problems were corrected. If your options are limited in regard to clinics, perhaps you can take your wife with you. The test only lasts about five hours.

Chris

First of all, if it happens, let me welcome you to the world of the CPAP. Contrary to Bill above, I hate mine!

Second, are these rules, or are they more like guidelines? (arcane "Pirates of the Caribbean" reference)

Third, any pastor who does not practice something very similar to these rules is foolish.

One of my seminary profs once said, "Men, there are many things that will hinder your ministry. There are two that will cost you your ministry: women and money. Don't fool around with either!"

Ed,

This is valuable counsel which I do not see many young ministers following. Unpack your thoughts on this topic further ... What about the many pastors who shepherd small congregations where they may be the only ministerial staff member in addition to a secretary or assistant. How should that pastor conduct his ministry when the secretary is present in the office? Should he never come into the office during office hours? I know many men that would find themselves in this situation. I'm interested in your thoughts and the thoughts of others.

Ed,

To follow along Bobby's lines, I pastor a congregation with a large number of older adults. I am 31. What guidelines would you suggest in these matters? One rules I try to follow is that I won't hug a woman at church unless she is older than my mother (currently 54).

Bobby,

A good question. Honestly, it is one that I have never faced. The churches I have planted always hired secretaries well after we hired several staff members. What do you suggest in such a situation?

Jon,

I tried that and decided to make my rule apply in all situations. It is hard to say to a woman, "you are old enough" and to another, "you are not." But, let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Just remember, it takes one misunderstanding and your ministry can be over.

Ed, wisdom is never silly. The simpleton who walks into the enemy's arms is the one with regrets. Not you. As for the list, I praise God for giving the same instruction to me through Rick Warren. And yes, they need to be Laws as in, "Break this law, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth as thou seeketh new employment." Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some of the brothers, but in the church planting world we have less leeway and more attacks.

Ed,
Great post on many points. Number one: Way to go with the health thing! I set a goal in January to finish a marathon. Over the last 4-months, I've had the best spiritual renewal of my life... read my blog on my experience: http://mymarathonblog.wordpress.com

On the primary point: Dave Miller said it best: "Third, any pastor who does not practice something very similar to these rules is foolish." Except I would take out "pastor" and add "any MAN" who doesn't have a set of these, what I would call "No Matter Whats" is foolish.

Frankly, I'd be very concerned about any male over the age of 12 who tries to convince me that they don't need these "laws."

Ed & Bobby,
My suggestion on the secretary issue is for the single-staff pastor to hire a male intern, perhaps a college student through NAMB's semester missions program? This is what we did in Maine, and it worked well for us. Or emulate many small-church pastors and hire your wife as your secretary (if her gifts and calling lean that way). Then you don't have to worry about being alone with her!

great stuff...it's a challenge that young pastors, and old ones, need to take on

Good advice for anybody.

There are two tools that I have used to protect myself and those I love from my moral collapse, similar to Ed's Shall Not list. The summer 1999 edition of Leadership Journal, James MacDonald wrote "5 Moral Fences" that I used in my pastorate- to the dismay of many members. It was the right thing.
More recently, Celebrate Recovery has 10 Commandments for CR Leaders that include many of these elements. Again, a good tool.
Ed, you have once again shown good discernment that others Christ-followers (not just pastors) need to take to heart.

I have a list of 20 questions I use with a group of guys. Accountability is huge.

But I really appreciate the tip on Saddleback's 10. That's pretty much how we roll as elders at church, but it's nice to have it succinctly stated.

Thanks.

okay Ed, it is your blog and your rules so no more Galatians from me.

blessings brother.

"Above all else guard your heart"

That seems to be good advice for physical and spiritual health.

I am a pastor. I follow those rules you listed as much as possible. I do make allowances for emergencies. We are 65 miles from anything in the middle of the West Texas desert. When I was in Kansas, I was asked to take a sick high school girl home during school. He suggested I take another young lady with me for appearances sake. I told him I would take two so I wouldn't be alone with the one for the 15 mile journey back to school. God bless your work.

Hi Ed, I thought it only right that I let you know i mentioned this post on my most recent article on Grace.

I know you moderate your comments, so please feel free not to post this. I only wanted to make you personally aware, that I was speaking about you and your blog.

Joe, I posted it. I try not to moderate disagreement, just did not want to get off on an argument about Galatians.

By the way, I wrote a bit on legalism here (or at least I quoted Swindoll on the subject).

Thanks Ed, out of respect for you I wanted you to feel okay with not posting if you felt it would sidetrack the thread.

Blessings brother.

So why, culturally, is this "not being alone with the other sex" rule such a feature of church life in the US, but simply doesn't feature in Europe / Asia?

I'm from the UK, but have worked abroad and note that US expats are likely to be much more flexible than their friends at home.

We Brits simply don't get it, especially in public places like giving someone a lift - we'd usually not give it a second thought. Maybe it's just a crowded island.

Please note I'm not challenging your rule in the US context, just noting the cultural difference between us in an attempt to see behind the two mindsets.

See long thread on this topic at Anne Jackson's blog at http://www.flowerdust.net/2008/03/14/sex-rules/

I think you should go back to that doctor and explain in depth why you in godly wisdom are not putting yourself in a position for anyone ever to even think that there is a situation set up for wrongdoing. But the reason that you should share with her, your godly wisdom; is that she needs to change her practice for her own protection, safety, and liability. We are to act in a way that builds the inferior in wisdom up; and cause the weaker not to sin.

I work for a church, and I have rules of my own as a woman, so not a problem with having rules...just remember, women are not your enemy. Too often I've seen people start going overboard to the point that women, especially women in church ministry of some form, are almost seen as evil or nothing more than temptations. You need to be pure...but women are people too. Don't forget that.

Sarah, that is a GOOD CALL. When I was at Southern Seminary, there were married men who wouldn't speak to a woman unless directly addressed (and even then, only briefly), would never sit by a woman in class, etc. Not exactly brotherly behavior!!

Sarah, that is a GOOD CALL. When I was at Southern Seminary, there were married men who wouldn't speak to a woman unless directly addressed (and even then, only briefly), would never sit by a woman in class, etc. Not exactly brotherly behavior!!

What this list says to me is : women are considered dangerous by men in spiritual power.

I would just ask that those who hold to a list like this take a moment and think of what being told that you are dangerous does to the soul of women.

Jennifer,

That is a very skewed view of Warren's list.

I am the father of three daughters.

I think it does no harm to one of my daugther's soul to tell them not to meet privately with a married man who is not her husband-- I think these are good rules to be followed by all, including my daughters, Donna (my wife), and me.

Ed

Ed,

I fully respect you (and your family) for knowing what you need in order to lead holistic, good, holy lives. I would never want to tell any person this is not a good set of rules for them.

But there is where I have a problem...

These lists (and there are many of them, I'm not picking on Saddleback) almost never start out with personal responsibility. No pastor is saying, "I have such a problem controling myself that I need to make sure I never have the chance to opportunity to do damage." Well, maybe someone is saying that, but I dont think its the majority.

What they are saying is either 1 of 2 things....

1. "You never know what a woman's agenda might be, and even if she's not going to try something, she might want to make accusations later"

or

2. "You never know what people might think and I dont want to be accused by anyone."

Both of these motives probably come from a very good heart, but the problem is that they dont require the pastor to take on the responsiblity himself. He can view the woman as a potential danger, or view "others" are a source of potential danger of another kind (accusations). Either way, those who are not in spiritual power are viewed with a bit of suspicion, as if they are somewhat likely to stir up trouble at any moment, and the wise pastor is just trying to avoid all the messiness of that. But, what he doenst realize is the subtle message it sends to those who are viewed with suspicion.

Honestly, I think what is outlined by Saddleback is probably a very good thing for some people in some situations. I have no problem if someone wants to adopt them to protect their own vulnerabilities. But its not the ONLY wise way.

I will share a tiny bit of my story to make my point....I was sexually abused by my pastor as a teenager. Like most abuse victims I believed that I was reponsible, and that I was dangerous. Lists like this made sense to me. But what I have come to see as an adult is that when men treat me as someone who is a respected sister, or a treasured friend, that damage is un-done in a way it never could be if I was still too dangerous to ride in a car alone with.

I'm not saying everyone should have the freedom to form intimate friendships with members of the opposite sex, or spend time with them apart from their spouse, or ride in a car alone with them....but I am saying that there can be much good in those activities too, and God can heal through them in the same way he can heal through other things.

For more info on this kind of altrnative point of view on having holy, but intimate friendships between men and women see Dan Brennan's blog. Lots of fresh ways to think of this subject.

www.danbrennan.typepad.com

Thanks, Jennifer.

Although I do not share all of your views, I do share your concern-- men and women are not enemies. Women are not to be feared. And, men in power need to take responsibility, not just make rules.

Thanks for coming by.

Ed

i have worked on both staff where these commandments were enforced and where they are not. currently where i am employed (and my own personal belief) is these boundaries should be defined within a marriage and not by an institution for which one works.

i have seen more affairs and indiscretions in churches who have "the rule" than those without. unscientific observation, indeed...but perhaps there is something subconscious about what the rules imply.

Hi,

Great advice. I am in OM at the International office in England, and we practice these principles and have never regretted them.

Thanks for your wisdom.

Tim

The works of law in Galatians refers to the notion that keeping the law reconciles us to God or, in Galatians, keeps us reconciled to God. That is the biblical legalism we must avoid, trusting in law keeping as the basis for our relationship to God and as the basis of our confidence that we belong to Him. Protecting our marraiges through the use of prudent rules is a whole different thing. The "legalist" police are a bit out of control these days it seems to me.

What ever happened to the power of Jesus to transform lives? If we are so broken on the inside that we need this level of extrinsic motivation to do the right thing it sounds like time to examine our spiritual maturity. Where are fearless leaders like Jesus who talked with the woman at the well and allowed himself to be anointed with oil with the hair of a woman despite what it might mean for his reputation? Jesus said we would be falsely accused and tempted and misunderstood. It goes with the territory. I believe we need to spend more time focusing on why it is so hard for people who claim to be Christian to do the right thing than on making and attempting to follow rules no one is following anyway. Rules don't lead to holiness. That's why Jesus came...

Ed, I usually like what I read on your blog, esp re: church planting and missional church. But this one I'm having a hard time with.

I understand where the post is coming from and certainly resonate with the intention of it; the thing is, Jesus broke at least a few of these rules.

As a pastor I understand human nature well enough to know that if a man wants something, nothing will stop him from getting it. At best these rules create a deterrent, but what a man wants, a man gets. It would seem the onus is on the heart of the person with inclinations towards adultery, not on the entire other half of the human race.

Why should such strong taboos be created around women who are also a tremendous gift to the Church?

Ed,

I agree 100% with these standards. I have followed these guidelines since entering ministry and reading Andy Stanley and Billy Graham talk about perception and opportunity of others who may desire to do harm to my reputation, family and/or ministry.

We have all known ministers who have fallen because of sexual accusations and the fallout of such a transgression on their family and ministry. I do not think this is about my faith or trust in Christ, it is about me being wise and protecting myself!

Thanks for sharing!

I know it has been a long time since Bobby's Question and comment about what a secretary and single staff member can do in a small church with no resources to add a an intern or other person in the building and can't hire their spouse for that role.

One idea I had would be to purchase an inexpensive webcam and set it in a "security camera" mode pointed in the direction of the secretary's desk and provide unlimited online "nanny cam" access to the camera feed to a link on a church website. If there ever was a question come up, a pastor could pull up an archived video of the date in question.

My only comment in regards to this is the comment at the very end...Rule 1-4 do not apply to unmarried people. Number 4 should apply to them as well. You should never visit the opposite sex at their home alone. This opens up for a whole can of worms as well. Nothing, big, just saying.
ALso, i was always raised you are never in a room alone with the opposite sex. This obviously had a lot more definition to it, but this is the short brief version. I always viewed this as a form of protection, not because Women are dangerous and men are not, but a way to keep ourselves from temptation, to be above reproach, etc...It is not only women and it is also not set up because we don't trust. We just all know how the enemy works! Now that my husband is a Youth Pastor he even more is glad for these standards! It can be inconvenient as you said, but well worth the extra work of protection. Thanks for posting these as a reminder!

Ed,

This is the first time I've visted your blog ,but have followed your ministry in other ways. I really like and appreciate the wisdom you've shared here(me being a minister in my early 20's),and this is an area that I believe I've guarder my heart well in and been very careful. My point isn't to argue or portray a different view. I am really just looking for advice. what does one do when an member of the opposite sex seeks counsel with them, and the being the overseers of this "flock" I struggle with the idea of sending the to another minister. When I know God has appointed me there to minister to these people. I'm just looking for other possible answers than having someone in the room (which my shut some people down and they not be as open) and I really wouldn't want to send them elswhere because of their sex. What advice can be offered to a young minister (one hoping to enter into church planting for that matter).

Keith Campbell writes:

"We have all known ministers who have fallen because of sexual accusations and the fallout of such a transgression on their family and ministry. I do not think this is about my faith or trust in Christ, it is about me being wise and protecting myself!"

I'll pull out a portion of that:

"this is about my faith or trust in Christ, it is about me being wise and protecting myself!"

When protecting ourselves/families/ministries outweighs following the leading of the Holy Spirit into potentially dangerous situations (and I use dangerous loosely since being tempted by a pretty girl pales in comparison to risking what Christians in other parts of the world face) something is wrong. The people in the persecuted church do not limit love and service for self-protection. The Lausanne website (a movement started by Billy Graham) is filled with talks by people from Africa and the Middle East who put it all on the line for Jesus. They suffer. Their families suffer. They trust Jesus to protect them and are willing to sacrifice everything in service to God and others.

Unfortunately, this circle-the-wagons mentality has permeated Christian culture to the point of becoming the norm and I believe this is part of the reason why American Christianity is ineffective and ridiculed. We are meant to become new people in Christ, not just talk about becoming new people in Christ.We are meant to trust Jesus, not create meager self-protections birthed in fear of our own weakness and veil them as piety and wisdom. Only when we step outside of these attempts at extrinsic control of our sin and submit to genuine transformation will we begin to do things differently...from the inside out. Until then our Christianity becomes yet another form of self-help.

Joan writes

"When protecting ourselves/families/ministries outweighs following the leading of the Holy Spirit into potentially dangerous situations (and I use dangerous loosely since being tempted by a pretty girl pales in comparison to risking what Christians in other parts of the world face) something is wrong."

Joan, With all due respect, my decision to protect myself, my family, and my ministry are from the leading of the Holy Spirit. We never know other peoples objectives or intent many times till it is too late.

I believe and have seen people who " lead by the spirit" that have ended up hurting many people, families, and the body of Christ in the process.

I disagree that American Christianity is "ineffective", does it have problems? yes. However, so did Peter, Paul, James and many other of the disciples.

You are right, I am a new creation, a new person in Christ and in that process, God gave me a new mind in Christ, and I instructed to renew it daily. I will use my mind as I trust in the Lord and I am convicted to take measures to protect myself.

Jesus was PERFECT, I am not.

I appreciate your opinion, but I know what God has called me to be, live, and example.

Be Blessed!

Joan,

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you can tell I take a different view, but I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I would say that you comment about "protecting ourselves/families/ministries outweighs following the leading of the Holy Spirit into potentially dangerous situations" is a false dichotomy.

In regards to pastoral ministry (the context of my post), you can bless, affirm, and mentor across gender lines. See my earlier post on women missiologists. But, you can and should also follow your convictions about how to do that appropriately.

Thanks for commenting.

Ed

Thanks for the response Ed. I respect your position and can see where you would perceive a false dichotomy if the line between self-protection and Spirit led service had been presented as an absolute one or the other but it was not, so I'd like to clarify my concern.

Undoubtedly there are people in ministry who need lists like this. They are, I believe, a crutch that one might use to bridge the gap from immaturity to maturity in an area where a shortcoming exists. If the crutch becomes the culture, however, it leads to complacency and the all too popular notion that people (men in particular) are incapable of having self-control when it comes to women, which is patently untrue. When relying on lists like this replace moving toward the best eventual outcome - self control - they can be limiting. It is into that specific issue that I raise a concern.

Ed -

Thanks for your honesty and even vulnerability in sharing this. I have to admit I can see both sides of this situation and have gone back and forth on the issue. What saddens me is that there was no one you felt comfortable asking (or were able to find) who would have been able to attend the study with you so you wouldn't have had to be alone with the female... If nothing else your post has had me thinking about your comments, and the comments of others here, for over a day!

While I understand, and at times try to live within, some of the guidelines listed, I also have to recognize that these are not necessarily Biblical laws but human, perhaps even Pharisaical, ideas. I understand Paul's admonition to avoid even the hint of evil, but I also have to take into consideration Jesus' example. Christ himself was accused of being the friend of sinners, in particular prostitutes and tax collectors, and his one-on-one conversation with the woman at the well was anything but avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

I'm am coming to the conclusion that this is why God gives us the Holy Spirit to guide us, because each situation is unique and different. There are definitely women that I know God would tell me to not spend time with 1:1 - and he speaks to me about that - yet there are other times where I think he calls us to look beyond sexuality so that we can serve and meet the needs of a brother or sister. Sometimes people may make accusations or implications, but we can't always live by the judgment of other people. Too often we allow others to dictate how we live. Perhaps we need to leave that up to God to handle - He is certainly big enough to protect us in situations such as this, is he not?

Not saying I have an answer, because I think this is more an area of conscience than perhaps anything else, but I think we need to be sensitive to not making legalistic rules where God has not placed them; I would dare say that Col 2:22-23 could apply to such situations.

I applaud your high standards and your willingness to forgo the test in order to value your marriage and wife.

Love the list. (Although the kissing thing is hard to avoid in certain cultures - like here in Costa Rica - where kissing is a standard greeting and to not kiss would be considered pretty unfriendly.)

As a very happily married woman, I see these rules as completely unnecessary. I have no desire to be intimate (physically or emotionally) with any man other than my husband. I have full faith in my husband ( and I think he would say the same about me) that he could interact with a person of the opposite sex and never have a desire for anything further. Personally, if my husband felt he needed these barriers, I would be very worried. If he did not trust himself and felt rules necessary, then our marriage would need serious therapy. I am not blind to affairs in the secular world and Christian world, but I think there is something missing in the marriage to allow that to happen or there is a serious character flaw with one of the partners.

Jamie,

Are you really the worst missionary? ;-) And, good point... this list is culturally shaped. It would be different in different contexts.

Questioning,

Please note that we do not do anonymous comments. Use your name if you comment, please. Thanks.

Ed

Very wise and sound advice. As a woman, not only do I appreciate this but I feel that it is necessary for women to reciprocate. Boundaries and protection should be both ways.

Sorry- was not trying to be vague. :)
My name is Jennifer.

I agree with the idea in principle that we should avoid appearance of immorality. I think its a clear teaching of the Scripture, and if it weren't it would still be wise advice to follow.

My struggle as a pastor comes in when we talk about shepherding. It seems very difficult to me to have two standards for shepherding people: one for women, and one for men. As pastors, we must pastor both. I think lists like these are a helpful idea, but as someone said earlier; the rules you establish need to be set between you and your wife. If i don't have temptation toward sexual sin, a list like this is going to hinder my ability to minister and shepherd people for no reason. Likewise, if I do struggle with sexual sin, a check list of things that prevent sexual temptation is probably a healthy thing for me to have, including a tight relationship with my spouse, and godly men that keep me accountable.

What I really detest is that we are so fallen, and corrupted that something so pure (like a brotherly/sisterly relationship), could be taken as inappropriate; and that we have to have rules like this at all. An effective of sin absolutely, but also an effect of poor discipleship, eliminating some who probably shouldn't be in the pastorate to begin with. If we are always worried about women corrupting men, or making sure we are protected from sin; I think we are missing out on doing what Jesus did. You know, going into sinful places, reaching sinful people, and seeing their lives transformed by the power of God. I cannot do it well if I am always worried if I am going to sleep with them, or if I am breaking a set of rules.

Just some random thoughts. :)

Ed,
You mentioned in this same blog on FB that the first 3 did not apply to unmarried staff members. First of all why not? I understand the first one. It's clear, an unmarried staff member should be able to go to lunch with the opposite sex.
Thou shalt not go to lunch alone with the opposite sex.
Now this next one is as much borderline to the unmarried staff as it would be for a married staff member. Maybe you've forgotten what it is like being single and how difficult it can be to abstain.
Thou shalt not have the opposite sex pick you up or drive you places when it is just the two of you.
Same goes for number 3. I can't remember the guy's name that wrote the 7 up rules or the rules for that matter. But kissing intimately can also be the downfall for an unmarried staff member.
Thou shalt not kiss any attender of the opposite sex or show affection that could be questioned.
Same to be said for this one.
Thou shalt not visit the opposite sex alone at home.
And here again.
Thou shalt not counsel the opposite sex alone at the office, and thou shalt not counsel the opposite sex more than once.

In fact it may be more difficult for the unmarried staff member to abstain than it is more the married staff.
For an unmarried staff member it's just as important for them to not let a hint of immorality be found. Just think of what rumors and harsh words would fly toward the attendee and the unmarried staff member. It would be harsh. I know, I found myself there as a young single pastor, guiding college, singles and support group ministries. It is hard work when so many around you are pressing for time, attention and guidance.