Argh! I'm in Singapore so that makes it 2am for me! I'm keen to hear your insights but not quite that keen.

Can you say glamor shot? Why is it that half of the people in the pictures have their head tilted to the side like a confused dog?

I'm just asking...

Hi Ed, I enjoyed the Webinar today. I asked a question and I think Jim took it as a complaint against multi-site. May I ask you to clarify.

You mentioned that the key for other churches learning from the success of the fastest growing churches not to clone what they are doing by apply the principles. Yet for some multi-site churches they have “cloned�? their exact stuff in other cities, other states and some in other countries. The success of the later seems to go against the principles you laid out. Based on what you mentioned (and I agree with you) these other models should not work, but they do.

Can you explain this seeming contradiction?

No, Joe, I can't now. Have to finish a writing project.

Joe:

See www.ncd-international.org for possible reasons.

Among other things, got these 8 characteristics--achieved in any godly way--probably got yourself a missional church experiencing biblical growth and blessing its community:

spirituality which is passionate individually;

relationships which are loving practically;

worship which is inspiring corporately;

leadership which is empowering primarily;

structures which are functional continually;

small groups which are holistic relevantly;

ministry which is gift-based consciously; and,

evangelism which is need-oriented intentionally.

NCD emphasizes the nouns and adjectives of each of these 8, but its descriptions of them emphasize the adverbs--equally important, I think.

Some parts of biblical church growth are spiritual; the rest is administrative. For an established congregation to experience each characteristic above:

1. Revival
2. Holy Spirit
3. Freedom
4. Training
5. Administration
6. Teamwork
7. Assessment
8. Adaptation

David, thanks for the ideas. I am very familiar with NCD and it has influenced my thinking on church.

You could be right, but then there is still this seeming conflict between the principles outlined by Ed and the success of these "cloned" venues (I don't mean to use the word clone in a pejorative sense).

Joe:

We know that the characteristics and needs of social systems (i.e., purposeful people-groups of all types and sizes) are the same everywhere in the world. The four main needs which must be addressed daily in order to ensure a brighter tomorrow (or ANY tomorrow): integration, motivation, adaptation, goal achievement. Options for each of the four are many, but still limited. Maybe, in implementing the counsel received from good and informed folk like Ed, people make lots of the same choices and things appear cloned?

I only know that, if our churches were donut shops desiring to stay in business, we'd be doing LOTS more of the above. Maybe staying in business isn't a great concern for us--God couldn't possibly let us fail (except that an average of 2500 Christian churches in the U.S. close annually)?