While we survey on a lot of serious topics here at LifeWay Research, we thought we would mix it up a little with a question touching on a topic that comes up during Halloween (or, as we call it around my office, Reformation Day). The topic: "haunted houses."

The belief that such places exist seems to be widespread (just watch the cable shows to catch the ghosts therein). Many churches have seen this as an opportunity, planning their own "house," calling it (subtly) "Hell house."

It is very interesting to me that people are still quite superstitious and regularly report a high level of belief in things such as haunted houses. (Of course, secular people would consider me superstitious for being an evangelical.)

On to the research...

As part of another project, we surveyed 1580 Americans with the following question: "I would be willing to spend the night in a house that was widely reported to be haunted." We were interested in the fear level that people have towards the "haunted," much like there are tribes throughout the two-thirds world who fear a hex or a curse.

Overall, 44 percent agreed they would be willing to spend the night. However, a remarkable high 47 percent disagreed. In other words, almost half of the random Americans we surveyed would be unwilling.

A few interesting results standout:

54% of males either somewhat or strongly agreed they would be willing to spend the night while only 34% of females agreed.

Interestingly, the age group most agreeable to spending the night in a "haunted house" -- those age 65 or older with 51% indicating they would do so. The age group least likely to do so was the 25-34 year olds with only 38 percent agreeing with the statement.

African Americans (72 percent) and Hispanics (53 percent) were disagreeable to the idea with 38% of Caucasians indicating they would not be interested in spending the night.

Region of the country seemed significant in that those in the south were significantly less likely than those in other region to "agree":

-South - 39 %
-Midwest - 46 %
-Northeast - 47 %
-West - 49 %

Marital status, education level, and income did not seem to influence a person's response to the question. But age, gender, culture and region all appear important when answering this question. Feel free to share your theories in the comments.

It is remarkable to me that so many are afraid. Perhaps we are more like the hex-fearing tribe in the two-thirds world than we like to admit. Anthropologists tell us that superstition is a universal trait and (like religion) it is found in almost every culture.

OK, since it's Halloween here is a polling question for my blog readers (with a small twist on the question): If you knew a house in your neighborhood was widely reported to be haunted, would you be willing to spend the night there? Post your votes (yes/no) and your comments on why or why not in the comments section. And, how would you deal with its reputation as a believer in your community? Is there a way to help people who believe in the supernatural (but respond in fear) to instead know the one who conquers fear, death, hell, and the grave? How do we (or can we) move from superstition to meaningful conversation?

[If you are interested in more (serious) research on church and culture, check out LifeWay Research's subscription email newsletter at www.lifewayresearch.com/insights. It is a twice monthly email with first release research with practical ministry application tips. Today's email introduces data and analysis on what Americans said when asked if they agreed with the following statement: I believe it is possible to communicate with someone after they are dead.]

Disclaimer: LifeWay Research, Ed Stetzer, the trustees of LifeWay, Thom Rainer, Johnny Hunt, and other people walking by the building today in no way endorse, promote, or believe in Halloween, haunted houses, and other things associated with this holiday that churches call everything but the H-word. Also, no animals were harmed in the writing of this blog post. And, it was made with recycled electrons.

I hate to post on top of a morning post (see here for some thoughts on our Love/Hate relationship with the world), but we just released some new research.

See here.

Some excerpts:

Only about half of Protestant pastors say they plan to vote for Republican John McCain in the upcoming presidential election, but McCain still holds a substantial lead over Democrat Barack Obama, for whom less than one-quarter of pastors polled indicate they will vote...

LifeWay Research found that 55 percent of Protestant pastors plan to vote for McCain compared with 20 percent for Obama. A full 22 percent are undecided.

Evangelical pastors are significantly more likely to support McCain than their mainline counterparts. Sixty-six percent of self-identified evangelicals plan to vote for McCain while 13 percent are for Obama and 19 percent are undecided.

Only 36 percent of mainline pastors plan to vote for McCain. Thirty-seven percent support Obama, and 24 percent are undecided.

"Protestant pastors are strongly for McCain, though that changes when you look at mainline versus evangelicals," said Ed Stetzer, director of LifeWay Research. "Mainline pastors reflect the American setting - they are split between Obama and McCain. Self-identified evangelical pastors are overwhelmingly for McCain."

Stetzer added that given the late date in the campaign, "there are a surprising number of undecideds."

There is more at the story here.

A few things were surprising to me:

1. Self identified "mainline" pastors not more pro-Obama (they were split).
2. A sizeable minority of pastors are still undecided.
3. A majority of pastors endorsed candidates outside of their church role.

Please take a look and share your thoughts below... I may not be around to interact, but when I am sharing political news (rather than mission news) that does not seem to stop a good conversation. :-)

What do you think of when you hear the word "world?" What's your response, or reaction? A cursory reading of the New Testament can make it seem like John can't even make up his mind on the subject of "the world." In John 3:16 he wrote: "For God so loved the world..." But then in 1 John 2 he wrote: "Do not love the world or the things that belong to the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in Him."

In Session 4 of Sent, we discuss the difference between the people of the world and the fallen system of ideas that work in rebellion to God. In that sense, we are to both love and hate (Prov. 8:13) the world. Part of what that means is living in the world but not being of the world. But many Christians have responded in fear to being of the world, so much so that they've completely isolated themselves from anything in the world. That's not how we are supposed to live and it denies the missional nature of the church. We point it out like this in Sent:

The Bible specifically tells us to live with 'worldly' people. That's exactly what Jesus always got in trouble for--hanging out with drunkards, sinners, prostitutes (you know, the 'bad' ones). Paul emphasized the same point to the church at Corinth. The church had become confused based on some things the apostle had taught earlier. In response, the church began to disassociate with the world around them. But Paul wanted them to understand the solution to their problems--and they had lots of them--was not withdrawal from the world:

I wrote to you in a letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--by no means referring to this world's immoral people, or to the greedy and swindlers, or to idolaters; otherwise you would have to leave the world. But not I am writing you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a reviler, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person (1 Corinthians 5:9-11).

Two things become clear from Paul's words. First, he has absolutely no intention to separate Christians from non-Christians. The concept was laughable to him because it would negate the whole reason Christians live in the world. The second thing is that there is an incredibly high standard for someone who claims the name of Christ. If such a person forgets where his or her loyalty lies and adopts the manners and customs of another country, then Paul says not to give them the privilege of 'dual citizenship.' They have to choose.

The church today is still missing the mark on both of these implications, though. To begin with, our lives as Christ-followers often look no different from the system of the world. Too often, the divorce rate is the same in the church and outside. There's the same addiction to pornography. There's the same greed and materialism. There's the same focus on ourselves and our comfort.

On the other hand, we may not participate in the world's systems, but instead insulate ourselves in a self-made Christian bubble, a life constructed so that we we live out our days without ever even bumping into someone who doesn't believe or live as we do.

As the sent church of God we must love the people in the world with the love of Christ expressed in words and deeds, while hating the broken and sinful systems of the world that war against the Kingdom of God. It turns out John wasn't confused at all, but the church often times is.

Find out more about Sent here.

Brad Waggoner is vice president of B&H Publishing Group, and formerly served as dean of the School of Leadership & Church Ministry at Southern Seminary He holds a Master of Arts degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a Master of Religious Education degree and Ph.D. from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Brad's book, The Shape of Faith to Come: Spiritual Formation and the Future of Discipleship uncovers the ugly truth that many professing Christians live lives that are not qualitatively different in character and practice than that of nonbelievers. Even as many of our churches are growing in number we need to take time to consider what kind of Christians we are actually producing.

In The Shape of Faith to Come, Brad looks at the beliefs and actions of 2,500 active Protestant churchgoers from across the country against seven key standards of biblical spiritual formation: learning the truth, obeying God and denying self, sharing faith, serving God and others, exercising biblical faith, building solid relationships, and seeking God. The research itself is challenging, and Brad pushes back on the apparent weaknesses in our disciple making processes.

This book is one of our first "LifeWay Research" related book line.

I recently had the chance to talk to Brad about his new book. Below is the interview and Brad will be around all day to answer questions in the comments.

Ed Stetzer: What prompted you to write Shape of Faith to Come? What is the book about?

Brad Waggoner: Having been in the ministry for many years I know how easy it is for churches and church leaders to become distracted from the real task of equipping and forming spiritually mature believers. I also know it is easy to fall prey to using other forms of measurement to determine success.

I wrote The Shape of Faith to Come to draw attention to the current crisis: that many of our churches are not using biblical standards to make God-honoring disciples.

ES: Discuss the research. Who/how many sampled.

BW: To address this crisis, we created a study that surveyed 2,500 Protestant churchgoers, people who said they attended a Protestant church at least once a month. Then a year later, we sampled more than 1,000 of the original group to determine if they had matured in their faith over the course of the year.

ES: What kinds of questions were asked?

BW: The survey was designed to determine the degree to which churchgoers believe, think, perceive and act like a biblical disciple. We asked questions about their beliefs and their perspective on certain points of doctrine. Key categories covered: Learning the Truth, Obeying God & Denying Self, Exercising Faith, Sharing Christ, Seeking God, Serving God & Others, and Building Biblical Relationships. We also ask several questions to determine the nature and frequency of many behaviors.

ES: What was the most surprising to you?

BW: I was most surprised by how compromised the belief systems are for many people who claim to be Christians and who attend church on a regular basis. For example, in our survey only 70 percent agreed strongly in the doctrine of the Trinity and only 72 percent agreed strongly that Jesus died on the cross and was physically resurrected from the dead.

ES: What, in your opinion, is the bad news from the research?

BW: That many self-professed Christians and churchgoers hold to beliefs and perspectives that are clearly unbiblical. And that overall the sample of churchgoers did not grow or mature over the course of a year.

ES: What, then, is the good news?

BW: The good news is that many people are interested in spiritual things. They want to know and love God. This study enables us to affirm what many leaders have known for centuries- it is the Word of God that transforms hearts, minds and character. In our study, the number one predictor of spiritual maturation was the daily discipline of reading the Bible. In other words, the most common trait of those who did grow over the course of a year, were those who had the practice of reading the Bible on a regular basis.

ES: What would you say to the pastor who responds, "not in my house," "this is not what people in my church believe?"

BW: Well, I would ask every leader, "Do you know what your flock actually believes and how they act on a daily basis?" From what we saw in our study, I think most pastors would be surprised to discover what their regular churchgoers believe and how they live. For example, 54 percent of those surveyed do not participate in church outside of worship service, and that during worship service 47 percent admit they are only going through the motions.

ES: What hope can you offer for those pastors who think they are fighting a losing battle?

BW: The good news is that God's Word makes it clear how we are to go about making disciples. We are to model and teach His eternal principles. This isn't easy, nor is it mysterious or overly complicated. No human leader can transform another person. But God, through His Word and through the work of the Holy Spirit, does change hearts, minds and character. I encourage pastors to be faithful to what God says we are to believe and how we are to act.

I always find hope in what the Apostle Paul said in Philippians 1:6, "I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

ES: So how can churches become more effective in making disciples?

BW: One of the things I tried to avoid in the book is a "one size fits all" approach to making disciples. But the book does contain prescriptive content that provides practical steps for spiritual formation and discipleship.

We have also provided access to the Spiritual Formation Inventory, the very same survey we used for the book, for both personal assessment and for use by pastors to assess leadership at www.lifeway.com/sfi. Also, several places within the SFI summary report, you will be directed to the SFR (Spiritual Formation Resources) for additional guidance and resources both for personal spiritual formation and for the discipling of others.

Over the centuries many churches and individuals have been used of by God to equip others in their pursuit of knowing, loving and serving God and others. Every church and properly motivated and equipped leader can be a tool in the hands of God.

Be sure to weigh in below with comments or questions.

I have been told that my blog posts are too long and don't have enough pictures...

So, I thought you might get a kick out of the new video for Lost and Found: The Younger Unchurched and Churches that Reach Them.

It made me chuckle.

I am in my hotel room in Bentonville, Arkansas. It is late, but I am feeling a "blog urge" and wanted to post.

Tomorrow (at 5:30a.m.), I head over to Springfield, Missouri (and it is midnight here!). So, I better make this a quick post. I am speaking to two Baptist groups in two different states. I am in the heartland with Baptists in Missouri and Arkansas.

I recognize that most of my blog readers are not Baptists and thus do not necessarily speak "Baptist." Thus, a little explanation might he helpful.

Tomorrow, I am in Springfield, Missouri to speak at Baptist Bible College. Bible Baptist College is part of the Independent Baptist church movement. Wikipedia explains:

Independent Baptist churches (also referred to as Independent Fundamental Baptist, or IFB) are Christian churches holding to generally Baptist beliefs. Like all Baptists they are characterized by being independent from the authority of denominations and church councils. However, the reason for the distinction, "independent," is that they eschew even the Baptist conventions or associations in which other Baptist churches participate (although many Independent Baptist churches do belong to fellowships). They remain autonomous and congregationalist in nature and are generally fundamentalist in teaching. The IFB movement is not a denomination per se, but there are similarities that run throughout most Independent Baptist churches.

I am not IFB, so I am particularly blessed that they would invite me to share with their students and the pastors attending the conference. We will be talking church planting and evangelism and I look forward to it.

Tuesday, I am back in Bentonville where I will speak to the Arkansas Baptist Convention. They theme is Reaching Generation Next Now. I will speak just before lunch and will share some research and speak on engaging emerging generations. After I speak, I will meet with some contemporary church pastors over lunch (see below).

Part of what I help the International Mission Board is help them connect with innovative pastors to get them involved in global missions. During lunch on Tuesday, we are hoping to do that very thing. Jeff Noble, who came with me to Poland last week (see his interview here), is organizing a lunch meeting of innovative church pastors who might want to talk about engaging in church planting in Central and Eastern Europe.

Rob Brown, who oversees much of the work there, explained the opportunity this way:

Come visit the IMB teams serving in Central Europe to see what God is doing and prayerfully explore how their churches can serve alongside these teams in impacting peoples with the gospel through creative access venues and relational exchanges.

If you are interested, be sure to check out my recent Europe posts here and contact Jeff immediately if you can come to lunch on Tuesday in Bentonville.

Updated: Check out this article. It just came out and gives great info about the partnership.

Good night.

Eric Geiger is the Executive Pastor of Christ Fellowship in Miami, and the co-author of Simple Church. His latest book, Identity, is a challenge to believers to live out the reality of their God-given identity. You really should pick up both books. (Eric will also be part of a forthcoming interiew in my leadership book interviews.)

Eric and I wrote an article for Neue Quarterly. You can find our article on page 84, but there are lots of other articles you will want to read and all are available on-line here. You can read "Simply Missional" in its entirety below and feel free to comment.

Simply Missional
Ed Stetzer and Eric Geiger

Dell Computers has shattered the warehouse myth. Most companies love big warehouses. They feel safe with lots of inventory on large shelves in massive warehouses, always ready for that next order. In their minds, the well-stocked warehouse confirms the belief they will always be able to meet customer demands and customer expectations.

Dell disagrees with the warehouse approach. In the technology business, the product literally rots in value on the shelves. Because Dell does not want their best resources on the shelves, they only keep two hours of inventory. Which means that if you order a PC on dell.com, the parts will not arrive to Dell until two hours before your PC is shipped to you.

Dell wants their resources out there, on the street. Not in the warehouse, where the resources merely gather dust and produce no impact. So Dell has designed a very strategic process to move their resources to the street.

Sadly many churches are betting their futures on the warehouse myth.

Most churches build big warehouses and shelve a bunch of Christians (those rows look suspiciously like shelves). They design attractive programs to "retain" people in the sacred warehouse, keep precise records of how much inventory (people) is on the shelves, and brag about their warehouses being constantly open. And warehouse managers love to show other warehouse managers their newest warehouses while dreaming together of bigger and better warehouses.

God is calling churches to shatter the warehouse myth, to change their warehouses into strategic distribution centers, where people are distributed as salt and light to the world--sending them out on mission. Some churches are strategically challenging their people to be out there, and these churches have a strategic and simple process that moves people from the warehouse to the street. These churches are simple and missional.

They are simply missional.

We are often asked if there is a relationship between our two books Breaking the Missional Code and Simple Church, co-authored with David Putman and Thom S. Rainer respectively. Is there a relationship between a church being missional and a church being simple?

If you have not read our two books, here is the elevator conversation: Breaking the Missional Code helps leaders effectively exegete their culture so they can live on mission as a Biblically faithful and strategically contextualized congregation, focused on living for God's kingdom. Simple Church challenges church leaders to design a simple discipleship process that places people in the best environments for spiritual transformation, and to remove the clutter and the busyness that competes with the essential.

So is there a relationship between a church being missional and a church being simple? We believe so. Churches that are living as missional communities in their culture are often quite simple. These churches do not rejoice in their complex systems or impressive buildings, but in the micro stories of their members' transformed lives. In the same way, churches that are designed around a simple process are embracing the call to be missionaries in their culture.

As best we see it, the relationship between being missional and being simple is apparent for at least six reasons...

Continue reading Simply Missional in Neue.

As part of a new feature here at the blog, I am planning to interview authors with books helpful for church leaders. B&H is helping me with the interviews (thanks Julie Gwinn), and it will include interviews with authors from many publishers about their books, mission, and focus. More on that later, but be sure to go by their church leadership portal, which is part of www.churchleadershipbooks.com.

There is a widget on the sidebar that will list each of the interviews so you can find them easily as you return to visit the blog.

The dubious honor of going first is to the Rainers, Sam and Thom, who have written a new book called Essential Church.

ES: What prompted you to write Essential Church? From where did the idea come?

Continue reading B&H Church Leadership Book Interviews: Thom & Sam Rainer.

I just finished breakfast with some church planters here in Denver, Colorado. As always, I am blessed by their commitment and their sacrifice.

Just after I finished breakfast and came back to my hotel room, I received notice that I had a new video to share with you about church planting.

I had the privilege to meet another sharp church planter, Steve Brown, in Krakow last week. Steve is working to plant churches in a place that might surprise you. If you have heard of the Moravians, then you have heard of Moravia. And, regrettably, Moravia is no longer a place that sends many missionaries-- it is in need of many more.

Donna and I returned from Europe last night. I will tell a bit more about our time there in the coming days. If you are so inclined, you can find some interesting pictures at Twitter).

When Donna an I talked on the plane coming home (faces 11 inches apart), we were struck by how these church planters live incarnationally. Europe was their home-- and they were seeking to live sent on God's mission.

When we went to the Vatican, we did not find it to be a spiritual experience. It spoke to us, but not about faith. It spoke to us of power. It did not evoke "go and tell." Rather, it was clearly "come and see." (And, that same sentence would be true in many non-Catholic settings as well-- including a few I know all too well.)

We taked some about the contrast of "being sent" and "maintaining structure" in a Bible study with Threads called Sent: Living the Missional Nature of the Church. In Session 3 of the study, I tried to use an illustration of a yo-yo to describe how a church should constantly be pushing outward into its surrounding culture.

The logic goes like this. Most of us have a Constantinian model for church which, very simply, is summed up like this: building + clergy + program = church. We saw it quite clearly in St. Peter's Basicillica. The fallacy comes when we start to see those components as rules rather than tools-- that was clearly found at the Vatican but is often found in my church and denomination as well. When you create a system with God-given tools, then turn them into rules, you end up with a system that needs to be serviced not a mission that needs to be lived.

A better equation is this: body + mission + kingdom = church. We need to be a body on mission for the Kingdom. The session goes onto explain:

The biggest disparity between the two models can be seen in the focus. In the Constantinian model, the force is centripetal, moving inward. In the biblical model, the force is centrifugal, pushing outward...

Think of it in terms of a yo-yo. When you swing a yo-yo around, two forces are at work simultaneously. The centrifugal force (technically 'inertia') pushes the yo-yo outward, and at the same time, the centripital force is exercised by the string, pulling the yo-yo inward. In the yo-yo, these forces are in balance at the same time.

The church's challenge is similar. At any given moment, there is a centripetal force pulling us inward, tempting us to care most about ourselves, our comfort, and our development. This strong force is actually part of human nature, and it results in things like the Constantinian model of church. What makes it even more conplicated is that the thicker the string, the greater the force pulling inward. So the more stuff we have-- the more programs, buildings, and clergy we add-- the greater the temptation to focus primarily on ourselves. When that happens, the church becomes little more than a spiritual department store, a kind of Wal-Mart for Jesus, providing religious goods and services to Christian consumers.

Now there is certainly a balance to this argument, but for far too long we have been dominated by the thickness of the string. So we tend to look in rather than looking out.

It was enlightening to stand with missionary church planters on the steps of the Vatican while we talked about starting New Testament churches in Rome and Marseille. These churches might meet in homes, cafes, or storefronts, but they would seek to make them missional in their contexts. These missionaries are making great sacrifice, being far from their families with little resources so they could reach people far from God and tell them about a relationship, not a religion. They would let them know that Jesus would live in their hearts and not a temple built buy human hands.

Be sure to drop by the other posts to follow along on Europe missions week:

Post 1: Why We Are In Europe.

Post 2: Vision and Video from Europe.

Post 3: Planting in Budapest and Beyond.

Post 4: More Video and Info on Central and Eastern Europe.

Post 5: Teaching English and Telling the Gospel.

And find out more about Sent by going here.

Why sit in a room and talk to three classes of Polish college students to discuss culture, politics, and faith? Well, for one reason, the students learning English has often never spoken to a native speaker. For another, it can be a bridge to share some really good news.

Our Poland group spent one day teaching at Jagiellonian University. the oldest university in Poland.

Yes, if you follow on Twitter, you know that I am actually in Rome, Italy. However, I still have info to share about Central and Eastern Europe. And, the team I brought over is still in Poland. So, there is more to the Central and Eastern Europe story on the blog (and more than I could ever tell on the blog anyway).

For example, in Central and Eastern Europe there are:

• 25 countries


• 264 people groups or cities


• 234 unreached people groups or cities


• 40 mega (more than 1 million in population) and major cities


• 25,246 evangelical churches


• 1.7 million evangelical Christians


• 99.5 percent lost

Before you read the new info, you might want to see some of the discussion in the comments here where Trey Shaw (from Budapest) is answering some questions from an earlier post. Trey is also on Facebook.

Let me update you on a few folks.

It's mission week. Be sure to check out the posts so far:

Post 1: Why We Are In Europe.

Post 2: Vision and Video from Europe.

Post 3: Planting in Budapest and Beyond.

Today, we talk about some new mission technology. This resource was released at Catalyst just last week-- and it is live now.

I've pointed to Barna's research that reveals growing evangelical churches are increasingly tech savvy, and our recent series of interviews with megachurch pastors highlighted this data. (eg. interview with Joel Hunter and Perry Noble). But what might happen if we could use technology just as effectively between churches, across denominations, to work and network for the spread of the gospel?

Enter OneApp.

Check out the video below for an introduction to this ambitious project which seeks to be an online missional hub connecting churches, church plants, ministries and projects around the world.

Be sure to sign up for updates at oneapp.net, and follow their blog at missionleader.com. For more detail check out this post.

More from Poland later today and tomorrow... and some from Rome later in the week.

Church planters are always a unique group. And, planting in postmodern Europe requires a certain way of viewing the world. As I listened to the Strategy Coordinators we met with, I could certainly see that to be the case. (I earlier described what a Strategy Coordinator does, but basically the SC helps to facilitate church planting.) These SCs want to change the world for the gospel and they press ahead even in a resistant field.

I thought I would share a couple of videos with you that tell part of that story.

Good early morning from Krakow, Poland.

Today's post is about God's mission in Europe AND YOU NEED TO READ IT AND WATCH THE VIDEOS. I just wanted to get out of the way-- God wants you to pay close attention to the blog this week. He told me so.

But seriously, we shot some video on our trip. I hope you will take a moment to read the posts, watch the video, and learn about engaging Central and Eastern Europe with the gospel.

Catalyst Friends,

Here are the stats I presented at Catalyst on Friday. I promised to post them here today.

As you will recall, the numbers are those who agree, somewhat or strongly, with the statement listed. I have only listed the agree percentages. You can download the PowerPoint I used here. You can pre-order the book, Lost and Found, here.

Thanks for coming to Catalyst and coming by the blog. And you are welcome to come back by and stay up with the blog this week to learn more about church planting in Europe!

Here are the numbers grouped by topic:

Many of you who are readers of my blog know of my concern for global missions. With that in mind, I am "shared" with the IMB several times each year as part of a joint venture. I speak at some events, consult occasionally, and try to connect pastors with God's global mission.

Last night at Gabe Lyons house, I had the chance to visit with Joe Vacanti, Director of High School ministries at The Chapel at CrossPoint. I have followed The Chapel for a couple of decades (see their history here). Their founding pastor (James Andrews) was an encourager and friend when I was a twenty-one-year-old church planter in Buffalo, NY. It was great to hear from Joe about some of the great things taking place in their church and the church plant they recently launched in Buffalo.

Just recently, The Chapel at CrossPoint planted a church near my old church in Buffalo. I was blessed to give some advice to Brek Cockrell and Jerry Gillis related to the planting of The Church at Elmwood. I keep up via the Internet and saw how they bought an old Catholic church in a neighborhood I have walked a hundred times while planting there two decades ago.

The Chapel is a non-denominational, multi-site church in Buffalo, New York that sees about 4,000 people gathering together on Sundays. The Chapel is currently meeting at two different campuses: CrossPoint in Getzville, NY, north of the city of Buffalo, and a second campus inside Regal Cinemas on Elmwood Ave in the city of Buffalo. LifeWay Research had a conversation with Daryl Largis, executive pastor at The Chapel to talk about their strategy that has led the church through a significant transition. You'll benefit from reading it.

LifeWay Research: Tell us about The Chapel.

Continue reading Megachurch Interview: Daryl Largis.

For those of you who came to my talk yesterday, here are the notes I promised. This is from the message I gave at Catalyst church planting lab.

In Matthew 16, Jesus' relationship with His disciples takes a dramatic turn. Until now, the disciples were expecting a front row seat as Jesus fully ushered in His Kingdom. And on the surface, that made a lot of sense.

We have a King... check. We have a Kingdom... check. Let's get this show on the road and restore the Kingdom, right?! Not exactly.

At this time, Jesus introduces a new element. He tells them about you and me-- the church. What in the world is that?

Continue reading Keys to Kingdom Church Planting.

Have you ever wondered about the terminology of megachurch and gigachurch? I did-- and I asked around.

The first term that was widely used was actually "Superchurch." Elmer Towns was the most common user and popularizer of that term and most early megachurch research used that term.

Thanks to Warren Bird, Director of Research at Leadership Network, who wrote his Ph.D. on the megachurch phenomenon, I know the origin of the word "megachurch."

meg•a•church n. A church averaging 2,000 or more people in attendance during weekly worship gatherings.

Frequent readers of this blog will know of my appreciation for Francis Dubose as the first person to use the word "missional" in the manner we do today. My "Meanings of Missional" series spends much time with Dubose.

Well, quite to my surprise, his is the first printed reference to the word "megachurch." You can find that in Francis DuBose, How Churches Grow in an Urban World, Nashville, TN, USA: Broadman Press, 1978.

But, it was megachurch uber-researcher John Vaughn who first used the term to refer to churches over 2000 in weekly attendance. (The 2000-mark is the standard today thanks to John's influence.) And, he is the first to use it in a book title, Megachurches and America's Cities: How Churches Grow (1993).

Also, in 1991, Prepare Your Church for the Future (by Carl George with Warren Bird, Revell, 1991) helped popularize the word megachurch. The book was based on some popular training Carl had done with pastors from America's largest churches for the 3 prior years. That book quickly sold over 100,000 copies, which no doubt helped popularize the word

What about gigachurch?

gig•a•church n. A church averaging 10,000 or more people in attendance during weekly worship gatherings.

Well, actually, I first saw the term used by Missouri Synod Lutheran and World Magazine editor Gene Edward Veith in an article here.

Veith expressed great enthusiasm for his newly coined word, explaining:

I realize that I have just coined a new word--the giga-church--deriving from a parallel with computer technology, in which megabytes of memory grew exponentially into gigabytes. The word "gigachurch" for metastasizing megachurches deserves wide currency. Use it and let's see if it catches on. If you hear the word elsewhere, please report, and remember that you saw it first on the Cranach blog.

But, in his comment section, one of his astute readers pointed out that it was Bill Easum who first used the word. I emailed Bill to be sure and it was the case, and he confirmed it.

The first mention I could find was in a Washington Post story that explained:

Where megachurch refers to congregations with an average of 2,000 or more worshipers every weekend, gigachurch refers to those with 10,000 or more, said Texas-based church consultant Bill Easum...

Special note: most researchers who use the word "megachurch" don't like the term "gigachurch."

Come back later today for one more megachurch interview.

(The graphic about is a Wordle of my first post of megachurch week.)

Megachurch week stretched to two weeks. Perhaps it needs a new name-- Supersized Megachurch Week.

Well, megachurch "week" is not quite done. I will have two more posts, one later today and one tomorrow. Here is what we have covered so far:

Megachurch Week-- Looking at Research
Interview with Kerry Shook
Megachurches in Outreach Magazine
Interview with Perry Noble
Who's Who in Megachurch Research
Megachurch Interview: Joel Hunter
Warren Bird's Megachurch Dissertation on Megachurches as Spectator Religion
Megachurch Interview with Brady Cooper

Enough on megachurches (for now, at least).

First, for the Church of God pastors and church planters I spent the day with on Monday, click here for the presentations I mentioned. Thanks so much for having me share with you.

On to Catalyst...

If my flight has made it (always a question when flying the Delta-owned ASA airlines), I'm at the Catalyst Conference for the next few days.

Today

I will be speaking at the Catalyst Start Lab Wednesday afternoon. I will be doing a live interview via the internet Wednesday afternoon at plantingchannel.com/catalyst. You may also want to check out the New Thing Network's Discover the Dream workshop on PlantingChannel starting at 8:45am eastern time.

Friday

My main stage session will be around 1:45pm on Friday. I will be talking about our new book, Lost and Found: The Younger Unchurched and Churches that Reach Them. A copy of the sampler will be in each of the registration bags.

Throughout the Week

Of course, I'll be Twittering throughout so you can follow my updates and observations from Catalyst as it all goes down.

Also, be sure to see the LifeWay and International Mission Board exhibits while you are there... I will be hanging around both of them at different times.

See you at Catalyst.

Brady Cooper is the pastor of New Vision in Murfreesboro, TN. Brady and I recently met at The Standard, a restaurant in downtown Nashville and had a little too much fun.

Last week I mentioned Warren Bird's dissertation on megachurches, and today on the blog you can download the whole thing. Those interested in what's really happening inside megachurches will benefit from his dissertation which explores the stereotype of whether most people are only spectators at really big churches. This is particularly helpful as it explores "free rider theory."

Free rider, a term coined in 1965 by Mancur Olson, is used for those who do not contribute in the provision of a public good, but enjoy these goods anyway. In churches, these are the individuals who come and benefit, but do not yet commit. So even if they do make substantial financial contributions, the average level of commitment in the church is lowered and the whole becomes less effective. In other words, if any organization has too many "free riders," churches included, the organization will fail.

Bird analyzed national surveys for churches of all sizes for group involvement -- as a way of sorting between "spectating" and "involvement." Bird explains,

The question of whether megachurches encourage spectator religion can be addressed from many perspectives. The approach of this dissertation will be: first, the proposal of an answer (namely that the data do not support the view of megachurches as spectator religion); secondly, the presentation of social theory that might support that answer; and third, the testing of the social theory presented through quantitative analysis supported by qualitative interviews. The outcome, if the hypotheses are well constructed, if they are reliably and validly tested, and then if the findings are cogently presented, might contribute to the increase of knowledge and ultimately to the sway of public opinion. (pg. 56)

Bird concludes that people's involvement is the same or better in larger churches than in smaller churches. These findings were later cited and expanded upon in the book Beyond Megachurch Myths (2007) by Scott Thumma and Dave Travis, and also validated in the megachurch chapter of What Americans Really Believe (2008) by Rodney Stark.

The rapid growth of megachurches, in both size and number, has surfaced several
issues of interest to sociologists. "Megachurches have exploded," Drucker says, "because
they asked, 'What is value?' to a nonchurchgoer and came up with answers the older
churches had neglected" (Drucker 1998:169-170). What value are megachurches supplying that other churches are not? "The greatest value to the thousands who now throng the megachurches--both weekdays and Sundays--is a spiritual experience rather
than a ritual."

Perhaps the most interesting sections are chapter 1, which gives a history of the development of megachurches, and the appendix, which gives photos and commentary on many U.S. megachurches. You can download Warren's dissertation below.

I could be wrong, but I am guessing that Joel Hunter and I have some unusual connections:

1. We just co-taught a doctoral seminar at Reformed Seminary.
2. We have done a funeral together (my father-in-law).
3. We both think my mother-in-law is a very nice person. (Very nice. Really.)
4. He prayed at the DNC and I, well, was near Barak Obama once.

OK, the last one probably is not really a connection.

Joel and I recently had lunch in the parlor of Reformed Seminary in Orlando (with our friend Steve Childers) and talked gospel, kingdom, politics, and a bit about my mother-in-law (grin). Later on, one of our research team members interviewed Joel.

Joel Hunter has served as the senior pastor of Northland since 1985. During his tenure the church has grown from 200 to 12,000. Northland is "A Church Distributed," meaning the church is arranged around the relationships of the congregation and partner ministries, rather than around a physical church building.

The people of the church worship at multiple sites throughout Central Florida and serve their unique, local communities. The sites are all connected during the worship experience through a two-way video connection that allows different parts of the services to be distributed among the sites and gives congregants opportunities to interact with one another in real time.

Worshipers also participate at 1,500 smaller sites worldwide via Northland's innovative Webstream application.

All of this makes Northland one of the most technologically savvy churches in America. LifeWay Research was able to talk with Pastor Joel about Northland's strategy for making disciples.

LifeWay Research: Tell us about some of the exciting things happening at Northland.

Pastor Joel Hunter: Northland is in a huge transition. We worship in a new building with all of its capabilities that was specifically built more for the people who would never come inside of a building than it was for those who would gather within this particular building. It has been a watershed moment in our history.

We have had the philosophy of being a "distributed church" for about 10 years now. And what that has meant for us is we have not only worshipped concurrently with several sites in town, but we have worshipped concurrently with people online. Now as that develops we are growing tremendously with those who are worshipping with us online. Some of the online participants signed in with all of their information while others just observe. This part of our ministry has grown tremendously. Because of this growth we are beginning to do everything and design every program so that we are not just a big church with inside programs, but so that any site of any size anywhere can be a part of our programs because we want to focus on those people who gather of any size, but especially for the worshipping point, the home church, the organic church, or whatever you want to call it.

LWR: So what does all of this mean for Northland?

Pastor Hunter: It means that these people gather together because they need some help or want to be connected to a larger group in the church to worship, but they are going to do their own pastoral care, their own education, their own community service, all of that kind of stuff where thy are. And that fellowship is important. So for us the development has really birthed a vision of being able to-- plant churches is probably too big a term for us because the term church has so much western baggage to it-- but we are enabling small congregations to do evangelism and discipleship and service and worship together all over the world. And so that's the course that we are on right now. That is where everything is pointed here in our church.

It has tremendous benefits to our people's maturity because when you come to a church and you are constantly reminded that you are just getting filled up for the people who are not there inside the church with you, and everything we do as a church is to make us witnesses and servants to those who are not regularly in church programming. It really does give you a better handle on how and what it means to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

LWR: How would you respond to the critical comments of those that believe worshipping online is forsaking the gathering together of believers?

Pastor Hunter: First of all, the ideal of online worship is that you would gather others to worship with you where you are. So the singular worshipper that just doesn't want to go into a church, although they are still valid, is not really our target. That is why we have never been on TV. The observance of a worship experience is not the goal.

LWR: What should people do that wish to worship with Northland online?

Pastor Hunter: People just go to the website and sign in to whichever service. Online worshippers can see who is worshipping with them at that moment. And if they like they can chat with others that are signed in for that worship service as well over i-chat. They also have the option to speak with ministers on duty and they also can participate in the worship experience. Whenever the congregation is addressed and asked for their favorite scripture, for example, those online can respond. As the technology develops we will literally be able to see on the walls of our church many of those who are worshipping with us so those people will be literally in the same room. So if Denis is worshipping from South Korea or Thor from Iceland--those are two regulars we have--we will be able to see their images all in the same room. It's this kind of togetherness that goes way beyond what you would think for technology.

For people my generation, I am 60 years old, it is a little bit more difficult to imagine that this is not a very cold and artificial experience, one that is rather mechanical. But for the people who are my kids' generation, they have lived off this sort of technology.

I have three sons. They have lived online since they can remember. They do life online. And the kids just coming up now, for them there is nothing artificial about it. My generation grew up in a theater style worship or life. The coming generations will all grow up where the screen is a connection or a window to the world. The screen is some degree of intimacy although it never replaces and should actually generate geographically based togetherness. And so that is what we are trying to do. We are trying to use a virtual community to create a local community so that people have actual physical fellow Christian relationships where they live so that they can care for one another and encourage one another in ministry.

LWR: Northland is doing a great job with bringing different geographical locations together for worship through the internet, but have you developed a way in which to help your online viewers/communities to continue the worship experience after the service through things such as small groups etc? Are you going to develop leaders for those internet congregations that are growing and possibly becoming another site of Northland? If so what qualifications would you expect to see in such a leader?

Pastor Hunter: It is in development right now. Because of the philosophy that we have we are probably not going to emphasize those larger congregations that are multi sites. Once you get past a 100 people you need a certain leader with a certain skill set and a certain gift mix to develop that big a group. And that big a group also carries with it its own expense and it carries its own rate of failure (the failure of church plants in the nation). So what we are going to concentrate on are leaders of small congregations. That is, you know, a dozen, 20. That anybody can take responsibility for if they have the ongoing support and reference to people who have been trained as pastors and can support them in that in that way.

For a long time here we have done small group leadership. We have virtually ordained small group leaders. They do some of the baptisms in our church, funerals, and some of the marriages so that it all doesn't have to go back to a large church leader for those sacerdotal functions.

Ultimately what we want to do is to take any group anywhere that has three or more and somebody wants to take spiritual responsibility for this group we want to take that person and mentor them and to provide resources for them. I am not talking about money but about communication. If a person in our own congregation decides to take on that spiritual leadership for a small group, they become a spiritual leader in every sense. This has already happened in our history. So we know it works. We cannot form a church but we can equip those that are coming to Christ to bring their friends together to form and a church and we can appoint a spiritual leader where they are to guide them

So that's essentially what is in the works right now for us.

LWR: What does virtual worship look like for those inside the church walls?

Pastor Hunter: At the beginning our of services we read off a personal welcome to those that are worshipping with us online and to the rest of the world. People inside the church are excited by this. Even if your 80 years old this is still fascinating that they are worshipping with you.

But the point is, we do have people who go out in short term missions. And we have hundreds of them, that develop this heart to be linked in worship and service to people in other parts of the world. And so they really want to pour our leadership and our resources into a church that will benefit them as well as benefit those who worship in a facility at a particular address.

LWR: Do you feel that virtual worship has opened up a whole new mission opportunity?

Pastor Hunter: Oh, absolutely. For example we have a girl who has volunteered to go all over the United States to visit people who are worshipping with us online. She is taking a video camera with her and getting their story so that we can get to know them and figure out how we can serve them better. The same thing happens in different parts of the world. If we are having people who are worshipping with us online on a regular basis we are trying to create a relationship with them. We also hope that we will have people from our church interested in visiting with them in their country and getting their story. We are not just sending mission teams to countries because we have heard that there are poor people there. We are going and assisting those that worship with us. We are asking them their needs. We go to support a Christian already there who is doing ministry and support them in their ministry. So this is greatly expanding our missions program and our mission's mentality.

LWR: How has Northland successfully moved your congregation to follow along reaching different generations, because you obviously you feel that you are reaching younger generations with internet worship?

Pastor Hunter: We are not trying to get rid of our 80 year old members or to change their style of worship. If they want to come to church and go to Sunday School they can still do that. We have not leapfrogged the traditional church. We have expanded the traditional church. We have a larger vision of what being the church means and that includes people who don't walk through the door. Elders used to say that "we'll take care of and love everybody the best we can who walks through our doors". The distributed church says, "We will take care and love everybody the best we can who will never walk through our doors," also. We do not try to convince people that are really content and growing that they now need to try virtual worship.

LWR: Pastor Hunter it seems that Northland is expanding the vision of the traditional church. What is your definition of church?

Pastor Hunter:The church is Christians coming together to worship and serve in order to expand the kingdom of God.

LWR: What advice would you give to pastors in smaller churches or struggling churches about growth and reaching people?

Pastor Hunter: Well, first of all there is a ton of information on stuff about things such as discipleship, growth, or church programs. A great deal of resources can be found online and they are free. So I would encourage them to take this stuff and to use it. But here is what I would say to any pastor and any church no matter how small and struggling because I was a pastor of a church that was small and struggling. You do two things.

First of all, you love your people enough not only to minister to their hurts, but to make them ministers to other people's hurts because that is when the church really starts to grow. You can only grow from those that are not yet included if you are talking about numbers. Your attention has to be as much on those who are not yet in your congregation as those who are in your congregation. If you only pay attention to those that have been in the congregation a long time, most of them have relationships already established within that congregation. If you pay attention to the new people that come in and teach them how to minister to others they have a relationship with then most of their relationships are outside the congregation. So in your congregation minister to the hurts of people and love them where they are. But teach them to be ministers also.

And then, secondly, just get involved as a church outside the church walls. Do community service. Do short term missions, whatever it takes to give yourself away. Because that is exactly what Christ did. God came in bodily form out of a very safe environment and he just went to where the need was. And whether that is in your town or that is in another country, what will happen is the church will grow when you go literally, physically to where the need is. That is the way this church grew and that is the way that lots of churches grow.

Fascinating stuff from Joel Hunter. Feel free to give your thoughts below. And, don't mention my mother-in-law in the comments!

And, be sure to visit the other post from MegaChurchWeek at the blog:
Megachurch Week-- Looking at Research
Interview with Kerry Shook
Megachurches in Outreach Magazine
Interview with Perry Noble
Who's Who in Megachurch Research

One final note: It looks like megachurch week got too big for just one week. So, we will end it here for this week-- but post more for next week, including interviews with more pastors and more research information.

Ed

Just under a year ago, I received a phone call from Warren Bird at Leadership Network. Warren was having a party and I was invited to join the fun.

It has been a long time since I have been invited to "parties." This one involved flying to Dallas, staying overnight, and meeting some new friends.

Warren had just finished his Ph.D. dissertation and the folks at Leadership Network threw him a soirée. We had dinner with toasts by Bob Buford at a fancy restaurant. (I don't mean to sound like a yokel here, but it was VERY fancy.)

In honor of Warren's dissertation (which I will share later this week) they brought together a who's who of megachurch research, including:

o Elmer Towns
o John Vaughan
o Carl George
o Bill Easum
o Scott Thumma
o Mark Chaves
o Samuel Chand
o Gary McIntosh

In addition, the fine folks from Leadership Network (Bob, Dave Travis, Linda Stanley, and Greg Ligon) were there.

You probably recognize many of the names, but I want to point out three of them who are most active in megachurch research. To do that, a short history may be helpful.

The first person who started listing megachurches was probably Elmer Towns, which he did as a column in Christian Life magazine. The editor indicated it grabbed people attention. He would list the largest Sunday Schools (since they had larger attendance than churches until the mid-60s) and later the largest churches. Among his many books on themes of church growth were America's Largest Sunday Schools (1969) and America's Largest Churches (1972).

He turned that mantle over to John Vaughn. John has devoted his life to studying megachurches. He speaks and consults on the subject. His organization is called Chruch Growth Today, and the tagline puts it well, "America's Megachurch Research Center... since 1985." (It is important to note that he also does research on international megachurches.)

When you are in a megachurch, there is a very good chance John has already been there... and a pretty good chance he has consulted with the church. Megachurches are a labor of love for John-- and this is his specialty. Be sure to visit his site. You can't really know megachurches without some of the resources on John's site. See Church Growth Today.

Warren Bird and Scott Thumma are also frequently engaged in megachurch research. I mentioned them earlier this week related to research they just released.

They recently completed an in-depth 12 church study that includes questionnaires from 25,000 megachurch attendees which they will begin releasing in February 2009. This data parallels other broad national data so we will be able to compare small evangelical churches to the large evangelical megachurches. The study will also have considerable information about where mega attendees are coming from and the depth of their spiritual life and personal practices.

Warren jokes that he attends a support group for people who can't resist stopping anytime he spots a big church. He usually co-publishes with others, co-authoring 21 books to date, many of them with megachurch pastors. Warren works for Leadership Network, which works with many megachurches and releases a lot of research on megachurches, all for free download. Check out leadnet.org/megachurch and leadnet.org/salary. He wrote his dissertation on megachurches that I will share soon.

Scott's interest is more academic as a seminary professor and researcher at the Hartford Institute. Scott has a very helpful web page here and a searchable database here. He co-authored a book with Dave Travis, Megachurch Myths, which is one of the most comprehensive analyses of the phenomenon.

If you want to know megachurches, hearing from these three is important.

And, if you are a megachurch, I would encourage you to submit your data to John Vaughn and the Hartford Institute.

I have had the chance to be in a few green rooms with Perry and he is a pretty interesting guy. First, he admitted to owning parachute pants in the 1980s here at the blog. Second, I would like to think I contributed to his personal development by encouraging him to update those glasses (he told me he has updated them, so that is good news). Third, there are few churches that would actually point to YouTube videos criticizing them, but they did (and, full confession, I watched the video twice).

Perry Noble is the founding and senior pastor of NewSpring Church in Anderson and Greenville, South Carolina. At just eight years old the church averages over 8,000 people during weekend services and is launching another campus in Florence, South Carolina this year to reach more people. NewSpring is also launching an "internet campus" in 2009. Perry will tell you their growth is the fruit of God's work through the clear preaching of the gospel. Someone else might want to clam it's the satanic influence of Guitar Hero. Knowing Perry and NewSpring church - I believe it is their passion to see men and women reached for the gospel.

LifeWay Research had the opportunity to talk with Perry about what's happening at NewSpring.

LifeWay Research: Perry can you tell us why you think New Spring is growing?

Pastor Perry Noble: I think there are a couple of things that our church is doing but first of all let me just say this. I don't think we are the perfect church at all. And ultimately it is just by God's grace that we are growing. I really don't know, but if I had to guess, two things pop out in my mind.

Number one, our main focus is Jesus Christ. We focus on the gospel. I preach salvation. I don't have time to get caught up in political agendas or Christian boycotts or start campaigning for some sort of moral agenda. I am called by God to preach and teach the gospel because the gospel changes lives. So I don't allow myself to get side tracked on what I would consider to be either non essential issues or controversial issues that haven't been solved for like 500 or 1000 years and never will be solved this side of heaven. I just want to tell people about who Jesus is because back in 1990 I was pretty much on my way to hell and Jesus changed my life. And I just think he can do it for everybody and he is still changing me, even today. Even though I am a Christian, he is still continuing to shape me.

Secondly, we have fought really hard to keep things very simple. I don't think that success in the church means you have more to do. I believe it means you have less to do. And so we don't allow programs to dictate every night of the week or whatever. We keep things really simple. Dr. Rainer and his book Simple Church was just a huge confirmation that we have got that right. We want to be very simple in everything we do. We want to be very strategic in everything we do. And so we just keep things lean and focus on Jesus.

LWR: You have been sharing God's word in some very interesting ways through your sermon series such as the "You Asked For It" series. How did this series come about?

Noble: Honestly, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I listened to Mark Driscoll and he did this series. He said he was reading through the book of 1 Corinthians and he realized that the book of 1 and 2 Corinthians was basically brought on by the Church in Corinth writing Paul a letter asking him a bunch of questions. And so he was like, "Well, I want to do that for my church." And so he had his church submit questions. And they went on the website and they voted and they did all that stuff. He did like a nine to ten week series based on the results of the internet survey. And so I was like "Wow, We should try that."

Mark Driscoll is in Seattle and New Spring is in Anderson, so I knew the questions were going to be completely different. I was right. The questions were different. In April we allowed people to write in their questions or submit them online. After they were submitted we categorized them into 18 categories. We then put these 18 categories on the website and allowed people to vote on which ones they most wanted to address. This step happened over the course of a month and there were over 4000 votes. We then picked the top six and those were the subjects of my sermons.

LWR: Are you always thinking outside of the box? What are some other areas that you are looking for to make your messages relevant to your people?

Noble: I think one of the things I am trying to do is trying to figure out how to cut down my message time. I preach for like 50 minutes to an hour. I would really like to cut it down. You know, when you consider the average sitcom is 22 minutes [once commercials are removed]. In those 22 minutes they completely develop characters, a plot and bring resolution to a conflict. I don't think I'll ever preach 22 minutes, but I am trying to cut my message time down.

The other thing I am trying to do is to make my messages memorable with a stage prop or something like that. I don't do that all the time because I don't want the tail to ever wag the dog, and I believe the gospel should be the central part of every message. Everything done in the message or in the service should be done to enhance the gospel. I don't ever want to say, "Here is a cool illustration. How can we revolve the gospel around it?" I always want to go, "This is the gospel. What can we do to really drill this in to somebody's mind?"

LWR: In recent years the church trend has been to start multi-sites or to plant churches. I think now we beginning to see a new trend in the form of internet campuses. New Spring is beginning a virtual campus in 2009. Tell us a bit about that journey.

Noble: Well, I am very excited because I just think that one of the things that the Church is going to have to do is accept that technology is here to stay.

I heard Rick Warren say one time - "I don't think God allowed us to have the internet so pornography can become the giant in the world. I think God allowed us to have the internet so we could reach the world." I believe this with all my heart.

You know, when Jesus is talking about end times in Matthew 24 and again in the gospel of Luke he says one of the signs of the times coming to an end is the gospel will be preached all over the world. Well, through the internet I can share Jesus in countries where I am technically not allowed to go. I can't go in there as a missionary. I can't go in there as a pastor. But I can go in there online and people will watch. And so I am really excited because the internet campus opens up a huge, huge, huge audience that otherwise I wouldn't have the privilege of telling them about Jesus. That is why I am more excited because at heart I am just an evangelist. I think it takes evangelism to the next level.

LWR: Which church/churches did you study for the development of your internet campus? Is New Spring modeling their internet ministry after any other church?

Noble: We studied Life Church pretty closely and asked the a lot of questions. Craig and those guys do it just as good as anybody out there. Tony Morgan is actually over a lot of our internet stuff and the development of it.

LWR: What advice would you give to churches in America? What elements would you say are a must in any church?

Noble: I would say two things. Number one, you must keep your focus on Jesus. Don't lose sight of the gospel. Don't lose sight of the fact that people are dying and going to go to hell unless they know Jesus. If the church loses the centrality and the urgency of that message, I think the church dies. And I think the reason that churches all over America today are closing their doors and shutting down is because they forget the gospel. They have forgotten that Jesus Christ died on a cross not so we could have a holy huddle or a stained glass fortress or us four and no more. He died on a cross so that we could reach the world. They have got sin in their lives. And because of that they are separated from God. They go to hell. That is not necessary. Jesus died on the cross to make forgiveness and redemption completely possible.

Number two, don't try to be anything except who God called you to be. Maybe God didn't call you to go multi-site. Maybe God called you to one location. You need to be completely content with that. Maybe God called you to go plant churches instead of doing video venues. You need to do that. Maybe God told you to do video venues and plant churches. You need to do that. You don't ever, every need to feel pressure because another church somewhere else in America or somewhere else in the world is doing something to think, "Oh, wow, we have got do that." Our call as a church is to do exactly what God called us to do. In the book of Revelation chapter two and chapter three Jesus gives seven different messages to seven different churches. If he wanted every church to be the same he would have just said, "All right. Here is my message to every church and it is just the same." But he addressed seven churches specifically and said, "Here is what is going on with you. Here is what is going on with you. Here is what is going on with you." I just think that each church has a unique DNA that it needs to focus on. The gospel should be central, but the strategy and the structure of the church should be completely open to the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

Perry's blog, perrynoble.com, is in my Google reader and is always an interesting read.

Watch and pray for Perry as I believe his influence will continue to grow.