As part of a new feature here at the blog, I am planning to interview authors with books helpful for church leaders. B&H is helping me with the interviews (thanks Julie Gwinn), and it will include interviews with authors from many publishers about their books, mission, and focus. More on that later, but be sure to go by their church leadership portal, which is part of www.churchleadershipbooks.com.
There is a widget on the sidebar that will list each of the interviews so you can find them easily as you return to visit the blog.
ES: What prompted you to write Essential Church? From where did the idea come?
TR: We were concerned about the abysmal assimilation rate we saw in churches across the U.S. Our goal was first to identify when a person is likely to drop out, why they would drop out, and what could churches change to prevent dropouts.
ES: Is there a personal experience featured in this book? Someone you knew from your time as a pastor who is one of the "drop-outs?"
TR: Yes, I dropped out of church when I was 16 years old, and did not return until my wife was pregnant with Sam, the co-author of the book.
ES: Discuss the research that was conducted and the 1,000 "drop-outs" that were interviewed.
SR: The research included interviews with young adults 18-30, and the study had a national scope. Most importantly, we wanted to hear their story. It wasn't enough for us to know the raw numbers. We wanted to know why they left.
ES: What was the main reason they determined church was no longer an essential part of their life?
TR: Basically the issue was that most churches were low-expectation churches. The leadership did not challenge the members nor expect the members to be a vital part of the congregation. That's why the dropout rate was so high between the ages of 18 and 22. Once young adults start making many of their own decisions, they saw the local church as an optional and, often, nonessential activity.
ES: Address the comment from the book that today's church is turning out soft and self-centered Christians.
TR: Because expectations are low, the response of the members is to approach their faith, at least as demonstrated through a local congregation, with little zeal. Also, the dropouts typically were in churches that did not teach and preach "meaty" sermons and lessons. There is a misperception among many church leaders that biblical depth and relevancy are mutually exclusive.
ES: So how much does "attitude" play a part in their decision to "drop-out?"
TR: In our local churches, we tend to get what we expect. If expectations are low, the attitude of the members is that I can really be on the sidelines in this church. If expectations are high, the members tend to respond with an attitude of zeal and commitment.
ES: What can be done to shut the "back door"?
SR: There were four key areas:
1. Simplify - Have a clear and understandable process of discipleship (Simple Church);
2. Deepen - Provide rich and deep biblical teaching both through the sermons and in small groups;
3. Expect - Do not compromise on the New Testament teachings of becoming a vital part of a local congregation; and
4. Multiply - be a missional church with highly intentional evangelistic outreach.
ES: How would you have used this book had you had the knowledge back when you were a pastor?
TR: I would have poured my life and given my time to leading the church in the four areas above. I spent too much time in less-than-important and unimportant activities when I was a pastor
ES: Can you share the good news/bad news you learned from the research?
TR: The bad news is that we are losing 70% of our members between the ages of 18 and 22. The good news is that the exodus can be slowed, and that reclamation of the dropouts can take place.
ES: Can you talk about co-writing with your son and his role in the project?
TR: One of the great joys of my life and the great passions of my life are my three sons: Sam, Art, and Jess. Hardly a day goes by that I don't speak to my sons. My love for them is beyond measure. From the day they were born to this day where they are three godly young men, my joy in spending time with them, in person or by phone, is incredible. Writing a book with a son allows me even more opportunity to spend time with them. One of my major life goals is to, somehow, pass the baton to my boys. How that takes place really depends on how God calls them and uses them. But I am so blessed. All three boys are smarter than I am, and more godly than I am. They have married three godly and wonderful young ladies. When people ask me who my heroes are, I saw without hesitancy, Sam, Art, and Jess.
ES: Explain the Essential Church event in February.
SR: The Essential Church Retreat is at the Ridgecrest Conference Center in North Carolina. At this conference, we will explore in depth how the church can reclaim a generation of dropouts. The event is for any leader who wants to know how to keep the younger generation in church. The dates are February 26-28, and registration information is found at www.lifeway.com/essentialchurch.
ES: Thom, I have known you for about 10 years and I remember you being on the road a lot, running a school, and preaching at churches. Yet, you have three sons who love the Lord and are engaged in ministries of different kinds. In Essential Church, you talk about the importance of parental involvement. How did you balance that out in your life?
TR: I really see more of my failures than successes. I was so busy, too busy. My boys are three of the greatest gifts given to me by God, but I neglected them more often than I am comfortable admitting.
The real hero (heroine) of this story is Nellie Jo. She is the greatest mom in the world, and she made certain that I was at most all of my boys events and with them for vital times in their lives. She would even work with my assistant to put the boys' activities on my calendar, so I would not be gone during those times. As a result, I had to cancel some engagements. But the hosts in almost every venue where I canceled were always gracious and supportive of my (Nellie Jo's) decision to be with one or more of the boys. In fact, through 20 years of traveling, speaking, and canceling, I only had one host who was not supportive of my decision. So the credit goes to Nellie Jo and understanding Christians, and the glory goes to God.
Now, it's your turn.
Fell free to ask Sam and Thom questions. They will be around today to answer questions about Essential Church. Feel free to weigh in below.
Sam, Thom - I really enjoyed Essential Church, thought it had a great message and was well written. One question I had was with respect to considering new ministries. How does this tie in with the need to simplify, focus, and keep alignment? If a person has a heart and SHAPE for a ministry that doesn't exist within your church, does the need to keep things essential suggest limiting the number of ministries, or just that they need to be tightly aligned with your overall discipleship structure/process?
(Ed, keep up the good work, and thanks for twittering about the opportunity to ask questions today) -- Thanks, Larry
Larry -
When Frank Tillapaugh wrote Unleashing the Church in 1985, many churches began starting new ministries when almost anyone in the church had an idea for ministry, As a result, some churches had more ministries and activities than they could support. If someone in the church suggests a ministry direction that is currently not a part of the overall direction and mission of the church, I would suggest looking at one of three alternatives for them. First, the ministry idea might can best be utilized in some area outside the local church, such as a parachurch ministry. Second, it is possible that the ministry does align with the current mission of the church, but this idea would be a new expression of the mission. Third, if enough people in the church begin to express this specific missional desire, the church leadership may seriously need to consider if the direction of the church does need adjustment.
Thanks for stopping by.
Thom
Great interview. Question for anyone above: I feel like my whole family is on the verge of being a "church dropout." We have visited several churches in the area and enjoy the worship and teaching at larger ones, but I feel overwhelmed at the idea of fitting in. We have been warmly received at some of the smaller churches and know we could have fast friends, yet I know me and know that some of the music and teaching would become tedious in time. We aren't that picky and we don't want to "drop out" completely but it is becoming more chore than joy to find a place to worship and fellowship.
Any suggestions.
First - I have not read the book -- yet.
Second - my question. Usually when someone says we have "low expectations" and we do not involve young adults in the ministries of the church - the default response is to put young adults on committees (or teams) to simply make the same ol' church engine run.
However, I believe they are not interested in doing that.
What did you discover that the young adults want to be involved in? What will they bye into?
Thanks - I am ordering the book today.
First - I have not read the book - yet!
Second - my question. I have discovered that most young adults resist becoming more involved in the church if they believe you are asking them to simply keep the same ol' engine running - same committees, same teams, same programs, etc.
What have you discovered that they want and will buy into? What gets them excited about serving in their local church?
Jay -
Try this approach. Bring your family together and let them know that all of you should approach your search for a new church as a missional opportunity. Pray together as a family about it. Then look at churches from the perspective of this question: How can God best use us as a family to serve Him through the local church? You may not end up in the coolest church or the church with the best music (but you may!). Ultimately, you will get the most fulfillment by asking what you can do for God through the church.
I have already prayed for you and your family this morning.
Thom
Good stuff here guys. I haven't read the book yet, but I have enjoyed the dialogue. I also would like to reiterate Cliff's question above concerning involving young adults, but not in the same old dead-end church machinery.
Clif - Thanks so much for ordering the book.
And you are right about young adults resisting the same ol' church engine. While not all older church engines are unhealthy, it is the focus of the church that is important.
Young adults have a desire to be a part of something significant. And the best way to connect them with other people in the church is through missions. Nothing unites a church of all generations like being on mission together. A 16 year-old may not connect well with an older adult in a social setting. But a bond is made when they are partnering together to help spread the good news.
In short, the healthiest churches inwardly are the ones that are most focused outwardly.
Dr. Rainer,
I had you for a couple of classes at Southern and have always appreciated your writing and insight. I am half way through this book and truly enjoying it while being challenged by it at the same time.
I am leading a young church plant (just turned one year old) in PA near a college campus. I feel like I have a thousand things to do, especially with an old church building that is always needing work. What is the one thing you would recommend we do first to attract and keep young people so they stay committed to the church for life?
Let me get this straight, Pearson.
You were my student, I go you up there planting, I have come and trained you and given you advice... and the first time you comment on the blog is for the Rainers' book.
Sigh.
Ed
P.S. Hope you are well!
Don't worry I love you too Ed!
David -
Thanks for loving me more than Ed. I hear that all the time!
One thing? Raise the bar of expectations for the young adults. They not only want to be in a church that makes a difference, they want to make a difference themselves. And I can also guarantee you they will leave if they are in a church of low expectations.
Sam, if you are monitoring the blog, let me know your thoughts on this question since you are 20-something and I'm an old 50-something geezer.
Thom
P.S. Don't feel too sorry for Ed. I may get the love, but he has a camera phone for Twitter.
I appreciate the dialogue here! One more question... Do you have any suggestions for how to transition from an attractional mindset to one that is more incarnational? That is... for a church with a historically inward-focus but that is now understanding much better the need to be more involved in the community, what can we do in practical terms to become more of an influence for Christ outside the church?
David - let me add to my father's comments. Not only should you raise the bar of expectations, don't be afraid to go deep with biblical teaching. Young adults want to be engaged with a message that connects to their life stage, but this message doesn't have to be shallow. With this generation, biblical depth and cultural relevance are not mutually exclusive. In fact, a great way to assimilate this generation into the church is through deep teaching that speaks their language.
Larry - The transition from a "come and see" mentality to a "go and tell" attitude is one of the biggest steps in becoming a healthy church. And the only way to understand the needs of the community is to ask. For example, our church recently called the Supervisor of Elections and asked how we could best serve his office since they are swamped with November 4th approaching quickly. They were thrilled that we even cared to ask! What he said would serve them best is for our church to provide meals for them the day after the election. So we're going to deliver 22 meals to their main office on November 5th. The point is that we never would have guessed their needs. We simply asked the question. One of the easiest ways to begin reaching outward into the community is to ask the leaders and organizations of the community what the needs are.
Thom and Sam,
My post is pretty long, I've been thinking about these! I enjoyed reading “Essential Church� and I am grateful that you even made it available free online! Thanks again! I enjoyed it and thought it was well researched and thought out. I was a youth minister for several years and now I am a college minister and work with the generation you guys are writing about. I have three questions:
1 – Regarding church swapping
When doing youth ministry (about 4 years ago now), church-swapping was a big problem. We reached many teens whose parents did not go to church. They simply hopped around with their friends (or guys following hot cheerleaders!) to the church that was doing the “biggest� thing at the time. I do trust the research you conducted, when you write, “Church-swapping is not a major problem with this generation. While many students likely attend church with their parents, these families are not skipping from local church to local church. The vast majority of dropouts attend two or three churches. Additionally, the vast majority of those that stay in the church are not hopping congregations. In fact, the difference between church dropouts and those that stay is minimal (p. 62).� I have been doing ministry in the suburbs of two major cities in Texas and it seems that church-swapping is always a problem with teens. How could we address this if it is a problem with falling into the entertainment and circus philosophy?
2 and 3 – Regarding discipleship
Like everyone else, our church is trying to address the lack-of-discipleship among believers in churches today. I also believe that Sunday School (Small Groups, etc.) are very important and vital to the church, but I have found it is still just a “Sunday� thing for most people. The result is that our Sunday School numbers are up, but we’re still not making disciples (though yes, I concede that we all may have different subjective standards here). We teach the Bible and even use LifeWay curriculum!! I am glad that they are there, but what else is happening Monday-Saturday and why can’t we get people to be more devoted than just Sunday’s (“a missional life� to use the buzz word of the day even though it’s pretty relative)? God and church are still something that is a weekly routine (as with baseball, soccer, gymnastics, etc.) rather than a lifestyle. You guys correctly note, “The third component of essential churches that go ‘deep’ is their encouragement and exhortation for all of their members to study the Bible on their own. Some churches, for example, suggest a weekly Bible reading for the members. Some lay out a plan where the members will read the Bible in a year. But the point is that the churches demonstrate that personal Bible study is critical in the spiritual maturity of believers (p. 203).� How do we effectively reach a generation (as well as others) who simply fit God and church into their schedules?
Also, we read Jennifer’s story in the chapter 9 and the expectations placed on her by her church: “I am expected to be in a Bible study and worship service on Sunday morning. I am expected to be in at least two six-week discipleship groups a year. And I am expected to be involved in at least one mission trip or community outreach effort. I can do more of course, but the minimum expectations are really not that bad (p. 209).� I am concerned about only requiring 2 six-weeks a year for discipleship. I am being facetious here, but a person with this philosophy could say in 12-weeks a year I can be a devoted follower of Christ! It seems that many people can simply “check off� things to be a disciple of Christ – mission trip (check), 2 classes (check), Sunday School (check). You guys note, “A number of the dechurched admitted that they were biblically ignorant. They confessed that they only had a shallow knowledge of biblical doctrines. And while they usually took personal responsibility for their lack of biblical understanding, they also blamed many of the churches for the doctrinal ignorance (p. 151).� I am not sure that two 6 week classes will be enough as well as an hour or two on Sunday morning. How can we raise the bar past this?
Paul -
It is not likely that any church will totally reverse the entertainment mentality and, thus, the church swapping that takes place as a result. As long as there are carnal Christians (of any age), there will be those seeking the "hottest" church. I refer you back to Sam's early interview comments about the four emphases to reach and keep the younger generation: simplify, deepne, expect, and multiply.
Regarding the Jennifer example, the point was that the church should have minimum expectations. There is certainly no way that just by doing those few items she will become a totally committed disciple of Christ. It is a beginning point that should be augmented with personal spiritual disciplines and even greater commitment to Christ through the local congregation.
I appreciate your interest and questions.
Thom
I have read the book and now we are going through the book as a staff.
We have been tossing the idea around of starting an additional worship service to reach the college, post college age group. We are located within 6 miles of two State Universities and need to do something to reach this group.
After reading your book, I keep asking myself whether this additional service is necessary if we can begin to involve this targeted group in the mission of the church. The reason I keep asking this question is that in the book worship style was not a big deal to keeping students.
Here are my two questions:
1. Am I right in thinking we do not need an additional service if we create a culture that makes the church essential to this group? (I know the service alone will not make a difference unless we address the essential factor).
2. Is your research only about keeping the 18-22 year old or is it also consistent with reaching this targeted group?
Thanks
Scott Baker
Scott - Thank you for reading the book. You raise a good question about an additional worship service targeted at college-age adults.
You're correct, our research found that worship style is not a major reason why young adults leave the church. An additional worship service, however, may be a great entry point into the church. The service alone will not assimilate young adults into the church (nor will it make a church essential), but it could help attract the college-age generation.
As for your second question, our research was specifically concerned with young adults, but we believe that it the general principles in the book are applicable to all generations.
Guys,
We're reading through EC as a staff. We'll spend a day together in the near future tweeking our strategy. Several in the church are doing one on one and group discipleship. So far I've learned the larger the investment, the more I watch it. I've quit watching the 401K and have atarted watching the new investments. What a refreshing time. By the way, I have my guys meet me near the "back door". I want them to never forget how brutal it can be without a great church family and a wonderful place to serve. May God raise up a few Key Men (and Women) For Christ.
Al -
God's best and blessings to you in your new investment in lives.
Thom
I may be too late, but I wanted to follow up on what Scott B. asked. Did you see many "area-wide" young adult worship services that did successfully assimilate young adults into the church itself?
It seems like "Metro" worship services are common go-to methods for churches wanting to create a splash in this area, but I'm curious about how effective you saw them to be.
If the Rainers aren't still around... Ed?
Thanks, Thom, for addressing this malaise in church membership. The perceived notion of non-attenders is a simple feeling that the church has nothing to offer them. You were the pastor to Azalea Baptist awhile back. Once a church of 900, we now can count 150 on the roll.
There is a slow resurgence of membership, but our core group consists of some determined elderly faithful with a sprinkling of the 18 - 30 attendees.
Present growth is occuring through opening our doors to community groups and activities - enabling non-members to become familiar with a faith group in their midst who honestly loves and welcomes them.
Chaplain Shields Moore
I am a Min of Ed in Northeast FL. Recently my pastor introduced a book "Rethink" the premise is that the age graded Sunday School is the problem with drop outs because we have seperated the family into different classes and the church a taken over the teaching of their kids. In Essential Church and Simple Church you seem to think that SS is a vital function and that both the church and families have not accepted their responsibility to disciple their kids. Did you in your research find a coorelationship between age graded SS and a lack of response from the 18-22 year olds reasons for leaving the church?
Being a 20something deeply committed to the God and the Church, I've often wondered what the difference between myself and other were.
What have you discovered about the unique natures of those who don't dropout?
Thanks for posting this - looks like a good resource.
Shields -
Thanks for your being a part of this discussion. My time as pastor of Azalea was some of my favorite years of ministry. Give my best to Sue.
Thom
Willie -
Our research did not include any correlative analysis with graded Sunday School. Thanks for asking.
Thom
Benson,
I met with Thom a little while ago and mentioned there were a few more questions... so it looks like he is "dropping by."
However, I know that the research did not include any analyses of "Metro" type ministries.
It seems to be those could be a good connecting point, particularly for those in smaller churches. I was a part of the one in Atlanta a very long time ago (in my college days) and it was a great experience.
Ed
Ed
Wes -
Glad to be here. Thanks.
Thom
To All -
Thanks for your time and comments. Ed told us that his blog traffic was really up for this interview, so Sam and I are honored that you gave us your time. I hope we have helped a bit. And I hope we have made some contribution to His Church.
Ed-
Thanks for allowing this interview to take place. Your blog is one of the hottest on the Internet, and Sam and I were honored to be here.
Thom