I was glad to write the foreword for the book, and recently had the chance to ask Jared a few questions about the book. Read the interview and jump into the comments below. Jared will be around today answering questions on the blog.
Ed Stetzer: There's inspirational stuff in the book, some devotional stuff, some academic stuff, some apologetics stuff, some discipleship type stuff, lots of humor and sarcasm, and lots of gospel. Who is Your Jesus is Too Safe for? Who's your intended reader?
JW: It's for people who need to hear about Jesus and the gospel, which I think is everyone, Christian and non. But I know you're not supposed to market a book that broadly.
The book does assume a certain working level of Christianity, and it does sort of assume that the reader is interested in deepening his or her understanding of what Jesus said and did. It assumes the reader has "a Jesus" that may or may not need clarifying.
And, yeah, given the pop cultural references, the humorous footnotes and the sarcasm and what-not, it is probably most in the language of Christians 18-40 or so.
ES: You cite N.T. Wright and John Piper pretty much equally. There has obviously been tension there. Fill us in.
JW: I know, I know. I'm supposed to pick a team.
And honestly, if I'm picking a team for the atonement wars, I'm probably with Piper. I talk about that a bit in the book, but I am a fan of a symphonic view of the different biblical emphases on the atonement with penal substitution as sort of the sharp, leading edge of gospel understanding and proclamation.
I love both men and their work. They are the two most formative influences on my understanding of Jesus. And the book is sort of a literary mashup of Wright's (and others') historical Jesus scholarship and Piper's (and others') passionate proclamation of the glories of Christ.
ES: I know Element bills itself a missional community, and I know you've blogged extensively on the missional church. How does the book fit in or apply to the missional conversation? Or does it?
JW: I think it's human nature to favor one extreme over another. We like life on the pendulum. So in the missional church movement, if we can call it that, we find big bold preachers of Jesus' awesomeness who are very little action and we find folks who are big on action but downplay gospel proclamation. (And there's great folks who do both.) This isn't new and it isn't limited to missional Christianity. It's fundamentalist reductionism versus social gospel all over again.
I think what the book could do - and I don't talk about the missional church in the book; it's just not in the book's view - is push us to ponder if maybe we have a Preacher Jesus on one hand or a Activist Jesus on the other, and the corrective is not to trade one for the other but to look at who Jesus was and what he did. He preached and taught that the kingdom revolved around himself, and he healed, fed, clothed, raised, exorcised, etc. as if that were true. The closer we get to the biblical Jesus, the better our missiology and ecclesiology will be. I think that's a fairly obvious point nobody really needs me to point out. But the book, I hope, will help people get closer to the biblical Jesus.
ES: You survey quite a few false Jesuses from contemporary culture in the Introduction--Grammy Award Speech Jesus, Hippie Jesus, ATM Jesus, etc. Which one do you think is most prevalent in the church right now? And what is the book's response to it?
JW: I don't have the research resources that you do, so I can't put a figure on this, but I can tell you that my biggest concern is actually about an Invisible Jesus. Jesus, the Best Supporting Actor. Cameo Appearance Jesus. The "Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain" Jesus.
In way too many churches - just one would be too many, but I know this is a larger problem than that because I have experienced it myself and I hear from many others across the country who have as well - Jesus barely or rarely shows up. He may make an appearance in an illustration or something, but he is not the point of the message. Sometimes his name is never mentioned. Perusing church websites or pastor's blogs or Twitter feeds, they hardly ever mention him.
It's bizarre. It's distressing. But it makes sense given the current state of evangelicalism.
ES: Run with that and explain your title. How is evangelicalism's Jesus is too safe?
JW: It's this weird thing we do -- that we've got to wake up to - where Jesus cares about the exact same things we do, Jesus wants the same things we do, Jesus gives his stamp of approval on all our hopes and dreams. Who was it that said "God made man in his own image and ever since man has tried to return the favor"?
Our Jesus is too safe when it turns out he likes and dislikes the same people and things we do. For our church culture, it's things like success at work, prospering in our finances, achieving our dreams, etc. But every time I read the Sermon on the Mount, for instance, I am immediately comforted and challenged at the same time. It totally freaks me out. If Jesus in the Gospels doesn't challenge your idols, your worship of them is more entrenched than you realize.
My friend Ray Ortlund says making Jesus the chaplain of the American dream is blasphemous. I think he's touched on the prevailing sin of Western evangelical culture.
ES: What's the takeaway? What one idea or thought do you want to resonate with people when they close the book at the end of their reading?
JW: Well, I hope we don't make it sound as if the book is constantly critical, constantly corrective. Michael Spencer did me a favor in pointing that out in his review, when he says the title sort of belies the real thrust of the book. I sort of set up the problems with some critical surveys in the Introduction, just as you sort of do in the Foreword, but the text of the book is overwhelmingly pro-Christ, not anti- anything. There are corrections as necessary and plenty of arguments for certain things, but the book is more "for" Jesus than it is "against" anything else. I think anyone who's read it can testify to that.
But the takeaway I hope it offers is what I like to call the all-surpassing awesomeness of Jesus.
If it renews or deepens or even just helps someone's relationship with the risen Lord, I'm happy.
Jared will be around to interact with us right here on the blog. So jump into the comments if you have any questions or issues you want to discuss.
Jared --
I'm excited about your book -- can't wait to read it.
Dan Kimball published a book a few years ago called /They Like Jesus but not the Church/, which I wasn't so hot for. Without slamming Pastor Dan, it looks like you have taken a different approach than he has -- your view is that the church has to declare Jesus, and that we have to get that right first before we do other stuff.
However: the Bible also tells us that the world will hate us since we are like Him -- like Jesus. That's sort of a badge of honor among (a certain stripe of) fundamentalists and their kin. How do you approach the tension between proclaiming a Jesus who is not "too safe" and the missional vision of the local church?
Frank, good question. I like the way Tim Keller approaches this in his great message at the inaugural Gospel Coalition Conference, "What is Gospel-Centered Ministry?".
Keller basically says if the church is embodying a two-fisted gospel -- which is my term, not his -- both proclaiming the unadorned gospel and living it out in the love of our neighbors -- we will be both praised and hated. If we are only (or mostly?) praised or only (or mostly) hated, something's off, Keller says.
I don't like "we'll be hated" as a litmus test for ministry success, because sometimes we're not hated because of Jesus, we're hated because we are jerks (which I assume is what Kimball was getting at -- haven't read his book).
I like "we'll be hated" as a reassurance that being hated isn't weird or unnatural. Jesus said it would happen. But making it the aim, as some fundies seem to do, is a matter of pride, not missional fidelity.
I like Psalm 48's picture of the City of Zion, a foreshadow of the church's living of the kingdom: it is the joy of the all the earth yet it frustrates the earthly powers.
How do you see the salvation of people being effected by their take on Jesus? Can those who believe ATM Jesus is who Jesus really is be saved? If the answer is no, then, must we all completely eliminate any misrepresentations of Jesus that culture has enfluenced us to accept in order to be saved or is it a matter of degree? Thanks, and I am looking forward to reading the book.
Just started the book Jared and wanted to say that I'm loving it. You're tackling some very important issues that today's pastors and churches need to look deeply at.
I'm proud of you!
Jared,
I am encouraged by your work on this. I see it clearing up a lot of misconceptions that many people have about our Lord. The need for this book is sad I think because it indicates how far so many are from knowing the Powerful Jesus of the bible- but I am hopeful that Christ loves us enough to reveal Himself to us. I'm planning on using it as a discipleship aide. Because of these truths God has gifted you to communicate- in love: Please continue to pray for our churches!
Thanks.
Rachael
Mansfield, Texas
Wow, Dale, that's a big question.
Jesus can save whoever he wants to, in spite of any of our errors or misconceptions.
I believe people who believe in an ATM Jesus can be saved, and many are. I am thankful that Jesus' saving work covers even my flawed perception of him (which I will always have). We see through a glass dimly.
I do think there is obviously a point where a view of Jesus can be so deficient that it a) represents a false (and unsaving) gospel, and therefore b) does not produce fruit in keeping with true repentance.
The Mormons who believe Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers have a very nice Jesus, but they are not Christians as a result of it.
The book sort of assumes that those who hold to these false portraits of Jesus -- which is all of us to one degree or another; I don't write from the perspective of having Jesus all figured out, only that the Bible presents him accurately -- are believers (or proto-believers) who just need to see Jesus more clearly.
My conviction is that the evangelical church has distorted Jesus, but my conviction is not that this means we are not the church any more. Only that we need to keep on with that whole semper reformanda thing. :-)
Rachael, am doing so and will do!
And thanks for the kind words.
excited to read it... the title immediately made me think of The Chronicles of Narnia... particularly The Silver Chair... with the whole section on "...not a tame Lion".
Pete: Thanks so much, bro.
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ScW: I'm really familiar with the Chronicles and with that quote, but can you believe I never use that in the book? I can't, actually.
I like your answer to Ed's question about the most common false Jesus. This is my biggest lament about typical American evangelical churches. The Trinity seems absent, or rather treated as absent and powerless. I think it runs deep -- into some of our theology too, like the atonement. Personally I lean more towards Wright's position, because the other seems too focused on satisfying (fixing) God as if he had some 'need' that our sin created; and doesn't seem to solve our sin problem -- we are still on our own to solve that. I'll definitely pick it up to see your take on it.
Jared, I'm really enjoying the book so far. It's not an easy read, though. I thought I'd get through it in a day or two, but it's already been two weeks. Very challenging!
I like the way Michael Card talks about Jesus: "We've made Him in our image, so our faith's idolatry". Don't recall the exact song, although I think it could be Scandalon. Does that date me? Probably. That's also probably why some of the cultural references in the book so far zoom right over my head. Oh, well. I'm still loving it!
Catherine
Rick, I hear what you're saying.
I don't see penal substitution as "fixing" a needy God but rather satisfying a just God. But I'm sure you're familiar with that line of argument.
Just as a head's up, don't expect an intensive look at the theories of the atonement in the book; they're not there. I spend a few paragraphs in two different chapters surveying penal substitution and why I believe it is the necessary sharp edge of our gospel.
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Catherine: Glad you're enjoying it. Hope it doesn't prove too slow a going. Some chapters are more breezy than others, I imagine. The story-shaped "Jesus the Redeemer" stands out, I think.
Jared, one of the criticism I hear from some is that we miss a full Trinitarian understanding with all these new books and manifestos on Jesus. What do you think? Where is the Spirit? The Father? And, how do we keep that balance?
Ed
Ed, I hear that every now and then myself.
I agree that the Spirit especially gets shortchanged, and even for those who "specialize" in the Spirit, he can sometimes be treated not as the 3rd person of the Trinity but as some kind of God pixie dust, like "the Force" or something.
I do think maintaining a firm grasp of Trinitarian theology, just as Jesus did in his high priestly prayer, will be key in the days to come, particularly as we love the growing population of Mormon neighbors who want to be let in the club.
But I think the same charge of "Jesus fixation" could be leveled at Paul. He certainly had no problem focusing on Christ as the key to reconciliation with the Father and life in the Spirit.
I think emphasizing Jesus is not only okay but important because it is Jesus' righteousness that we have given to us, it is he who is the way, the truth, and the life. The access we have to our great triune God we have through Jesus who broke down the dividing wall with his flesh.
The Scriptures testify to the triune God but when God wanted to literally give of himself to us, he sent Jesus.
Not sure if that answers the question...
I'm curious on your take on the book "Your God is too Small" and which you'd recommend different maturity levels of Christians read first. bit.ly/2mPVK
Jared:
Great answer -- looking forward to reading your book.
DeanG, I am not familiar with that book. Have heard of it, but do not "know" it.
Lots of people ask me about Mark Buchanan's Your God is Too Safe, which is a great book. Read that a few years back and loved it.
It was not, however, an inspiration for mine, the similar title notwithstanding.
"Your Jesus is Too Safe" was not my original title, my first deemed not very marketable. YJITS was one of a list of about ten alternatives I offered the publisher when they asked for a new one. It's the one we both agreed on.
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Frank, thanks for reading!