What does the title "If God Were Real" mean and what inspired the title?
I have become increasingly concerned over the last several years that most Christians and most churches have actually stopped believing in God! Think about the audacious things we say we believe: God becoming a baby, the Creator's rebellious creation creates an instrument of death on which the Creator dies and yet won't stay dead. The gospel is revolutionary! So why do we live such timid, unchanged lives? Seems to me we may be practical atheists. I wanted to explore with the readers what it might be like if we actually lived like we believe what we say we do.
I also wrote this in the hopes that atheists and seekers, some of whom are friends, would take a look at God from a different perspective and without the "battle mode" Christians and atheists are normally in. After all if atheists don't believe in God and we live like we don't, we may have more in common than we thought!
You say that you have given up on Christianity and so should everyone else. What do you mean by that?
The word "Christian" is a good word - a biblical word. When you add "ity" to it you get something I don't see in the New Testament. I think this has become our problem. In the first century there was a Jesus Movement that changed the world. In the western world today there are lots of Jesus monuments that don't change much of anything.
I am not giving up on the church. I don't think we have actually tried being the church very often yet! I am sure not giving up on the Scriptures. I believe them to be the very Word of God. So some have asked what does it practically mean then to give up on Christianity. 3 things for me: I have given up on the Christianity that has become defined by institutions, opposition, and isolation. I have given up on any institution that is not visibly a part of a Jesus movement. I have given up on the thought that if we just oppose enough evil people, we will usher in the kingdom. I have given up on the isolation that has resulted in most churches becoming religious clubs for its members, divorcing us from the very mission in the world to which Jesus called us.
You talk a lot about "transformation." What should that look like in the Church and what does it look like in yours?
As evangelicals when we read the Bible we get very excited about the Philippian jailer getting saved. But we forget that Philippi itself was transformed! Think of how much of the New Testament is about what God was doing in the cities of their day. I am as committed as ever to the salvation of every soul. But it bothers me that even in the case of many of our largest churches, there is not a lot of evidence that the community around them is being transformed.
I have only been at my church, First West in West Monroe, La for a few years but I believe we are going to be a lab for what it would look like if the churches of a community lived together like God is real. We already have over 100 churches committed to the same vision: "to see the spiritual, cultural and physical transformation of our community so visible it can't be missed." We are working together with city leaders, business leaders, education leaders, and churches to bring the transformative power of the Gospel into the real issues of our community. I could write forever about this. We are committed together to break down barriers that have divided us and see with our eyes what a city can become. We are changing the metrics of the way we measure success as a church to reflect this vision. If we have more butts in the seats but more drugs on the streets we have failed.
You are known for being a part of a collegiate revival movement in the 90s. What would revival look like today?
I don't know. I think one of the mistakes of many of those who love and pray for revival has been to expect God to do what He has done before. He is a Creator, thus unlikely to repeat Himself. The Great Awakenings brought so much change that many traditional Christians rejected them. If we want revival we better begin to pray for God to change everything. Normally we just want Him to change things back to the way we were most comfortable with. I do believe that revival always requires a movement of prayer. At our church we have determined to meet and pray like we believe in God. We call our prayer service "Destiny." I told our people that we were going to ask God to do more than we could imagine and if he didn't we could all become atheists and play a lot more golf! That may sound presumptuous but since God told us in Ephesians 3:20 that He would do that, we have decided to believe Him! And we are seeing Him do things we have never dreamed of! I long to see the next Great Awakening. What happened in Brownwood, Texas in 1995and 1996 changed me forever - and continues to bear fruit all over the world.
My guess would be that if God moves powerfully in our day it will be in the marketplace and schools, likely among young people and young adults, and very possibly apart from most of our established churches.
You address both believers and unbelievers in this book. So what impact do you hope the book has on believers and unbelievers?
I hope unbelievers would hear me as a friend, or at least a potential friend, and consider if they have rejected the wrong God - the God of hatred, anger, isolation and institutionalism that they think we want them to believe in. I am an atheist too when it comes to that God!
I hope believers will revolt against what we have made of Christianity and move together into the awesome, passionate, scary-but-worth-it journey of living like God is real. That's my hope!
Hit John with your questions in the comments. And don't bother with those softball questions. :)
I live in West Monroe and it's great to see a church finally taking this attitude of going into the community to serve and be a part of the transformation.
Thanks Jonathan! Excited about the possibility that our church can be a "lab" for what can happen in a community when the body of Christ lives like God is real.
John,
What do you see happening in the lives of people who begin to think of God as real in respect to how they relate to lost family members?
I have lost family members that I have talked to and prayed for for years.
Does your book address what I can change and do to reopen the dialogue for a witness?
Yes Tim, there is a whole chapter in my book on the family, including the journey our family walked thru with my wife's lost Dad. And depending on the particular situation, much of the book will help you in sharing with family or anyone who may need a different approach. I write a lot for instance about a relationship I have with an atheist friend. Hope that helps!
Ed thanks for the interview. John, loved the book and the signature made it extra special :)
I was struck by the line in the interview, "I don't think we have actually tried being the church very often yet!" It is important not just because it is probably so spot on but also because it comes from someone that God has entrusted with so much.
When you say that or even write it...it's not just the rant of a rebellious or passionate young adult. (not to lessen that at all) But, it comes from someone who has seen and done much for the kingdom. From where you stand you have to not only feel the boldness of the words but also bare the responsibility of what it means about our past and our future.
I'm pleased that men like you are writing books like this. We need more of them. We need new eyes to see what God is up to all around us.
Once again...I'm so excited that you are where you are leading First West. You have no idea how much I believe in how God is using you in northeast LA.
Thanks for sharing with us.
Peace ~
Hey John,
You say, "I have given up on the Christianity that has become defined by institutions, opposition, and isolation. I have given up on any institution that is not visibly a part of a Jesus movement. I have given up on the thought that if we just oppose enough evil people, we will usher in the kingdom. I have given up on the isolation that has resulted in most churches becoming religious clubs for its members, divorcing us from the very mission in the world to which Jesus called us."
Does that correspond to leaving these religious institutions immediately to be a part of the "Jesus movement" or do you see circumstances where there is a need to stay and be the voice of change even if you don't see change happening? Comeback churches, although rare, do exist.
Wow William I really appreciate that! With all the mess we are in I am still optimistic about the future of the Church. Our systems and structures - not so much. But there are an amazing number of leaders of all ages ready to take seriously living the gospel. Thanks for being one of them!
Thanks Jason. Not just trying to sell the book but I actually answer that question pretty extensively on pages 69, 70. Basically, I think strong leaders should not waste too much time before leaving churches that are not really churches or institutions that get in the way of the church - unless there is evidence that change is likely. Life is too short and strong leaders too rare to waste either!
I grew up in a secular home and came to faith at age 37 in a manner I have come to learn was unusual. Won't go into details, but the outcome was a dramatic 180 degree turn in my life and a lot of you-say-jump-I-say-how-high training/refining that was anything but linear. As I began to change from the inside out and my life began to change as a result, I found it interesting that my secular friends cheered me on while many of the people I met in church settings were skeptical (at best) and outright discouraging (at worst).
Now, six years later, I lost almost everything I had before my conversion (money, career, large home, fancy title), but have gained a whole new sense of purpose. Trust me, as a lifelong atheist before all of this happened, there is no one more surprised than I am to be writing this. I guess all of this is to say that I pray your book will help people to let go and allow themselves to fall into the grace that Jesus died to give them rather than hold with white knuckles to an illusion of control. More happy, carefree Christians trusting God one day at a time and being joyful even in times of challenge will surely raise eyebrows and generate questions regarding the source of such paradoxical bliss.
Thanks for the response John. West Monroe isn't too far from me, so maybe I can come and see what God is doing there through you all. Soli Deo Gloria!
John,
You say you are leaving the "institution" and that we have not often tried to actually be the church.
What does "church" look like at First West?
Thanks Joan for the beautiful story of your life! Thanks for living like God is real!
John,
I have always appreciate your passion for seeing people come to Christ... and your frustration with the distractions that cause us to lose our focus.
I wonder how much your Cottonwood experience shaped you and put that passion and frustration in you. (For those who don't know about it, click the link above about the college revival).
Do you see that experience as normal and something we need to get back to, or was that just a unique blessing of God? How has it influenced what you do today?
Ed
Great question. Much of what we do in worship looks a lot like other large churches - great worship, strong small groups, etc. But we don't consider any of that "church". Every Sunday I walk out the door and invite people to go to church with me - to follow Jesus away from the comfortable 99 to the 1 He seeks. We share a common vsion to transform our community with many other churches. We put missionaries in houses in difficult neighborhoods, mentor young people, adopt schools to help increase test scores, coach families out of poverty, do prison after-care, run a counseling center where the majority of the clients are not church members, beautify the neighborhood, work to bring in new businesses to our area, help people get free from addictions, and a lot of other transformational ministries. We are not a soup kitchen. We are about people changing their lives. We believe the gospel is meant to change lives and cities! Oh and we pray like we believe God is real! Our Wed prayer time is my favorite time of the week - life change stories every week and free-flowing prayer and praise. Long answer but I am excited about this church! Long way to go though.
I stumbled onto the first west podcast somehow (I can't remember). I've been enjoying it. I'm inspired by the picture you paint of a Gospel-centered, culture-changing church. I wonder if First West were four years old with 70 people what would be the first (next) step in becoming the kind of church you describe. Also, what is the largest hurdle you've faced there in leading change?
John,
Thanks for your reply. Lots of great stuff going on there. I agree that what happens in a service on Sunday has eclipsed the fuller definition of what The Church is for many Christians. I've found that much evangelical conversation is centered on the church building with Jesus as a footnote. Congrats on taking steps to return to the fuller, Christ-centered view of church.
Cottonwood? Brownwood, Ed, Brownwood! :) My Brownwood friends will get a kick out of that. I believe personal and corporate transformation should be the birthright of the Church! So i do believe that there should be periodic times we call revival that reverses the mess we make of things and returns us to the heart of God. The problem as I write about is that we want revival to make things the way they were in "the good old days," in other words MY day! Revival brings new life not old life, and so will often change everything around us. Historic revivals have been oppossed by Christians not secular people. The revival in Brownwood changed everything for me, and for those who experienced those incredible days. Hard to settle anymore for what I can accomplish without the power of God!
Thanks Bennett. I have faced surprisingly few hurdles. This church has been led well by former pastors who taught the church the value of change and instilled in them a desire not to see the church wither or their children and grandchildren go to hell! That's somehting I stress a lot. We are a multi-generational church. Our older people are incredibly open in allowing us to change when they tie it to the future of their family and the transformation of the community.
Great question on the church of 70. I would preach a series on Matthew 25. Jesus seems pretty serious about expecting that his followers will have lived transformational lives among the least of these on this earth. I would start in the shadow of where you meet. Challenge your church to consider why a church should be called a church if it makes no difference in the lives of those living right there, who we pass on the way to worship. Find out one wound in the community that the church could help heal and make that a part of the way you measure success. Become a crucial part of the fabric of the neighborhood so that all would miss you if you were gone. Bless and partner with mayors, city leaders, teachers, etc instead of opposing them. Tell the stories. Show before and after pictures. When someone comes to Christ as a result celebrate like it's Christmas Day. Make sure your vision statement clearly says what you are about and keep it before your people all the time. Ours is to give ourselves away for the transformation of our comunity, the city of Vegas, the nation of Wales, and the Bongay people of Asia. That's all we do. Everyone here knows it. Hope that helps!
John:
Years and years ago (when we both were REALLY young in ministry--not just young in ministry!), I remember your speaking at a BGCT Evangelism Conference (I believe it was--after the revival thing in Brownwood) and telling a really funny illustration about punching a balloon one night in your child's bedroom. Even if it isn't as funny typed at a blogsite, readers here might get a kick out of the story--and get the point you were making by recounting it. Do you remember?
I think Chuck Swindoll spoke at the same conference, introduced by his good friend (and everyone's) Jimmy Draper. I remember Dr. Draper saying about Chuck something like, "He's as Southern Baptist as we are!"--and that they had sort of grown up in ministry together and knew each other very well.
David Troublefield
Minister of Education/Missions
Lamar Baptist Church
Wichita Falls, TX
Hi David. Yes I will not forget that story. There was a man breaking into houses and molesting children in Dallas years ago. My daughters were something like 7 and 4 and shared a room. In the middle of the night they screamed that someone was in their room. I ran down the hall opened the door and saw a face coming at me in the darkness. My right hook took out the evil helium balloon! I still laugh thinking about it.
Two questions:
(1) How do you guys spread the gospel?
(2) What do you tell someone to do who wants to follow Jesus?
There's so much junk out there that these tend to be the (unfortunate) first questions I ask. Thanks!