I would quibble with this a little:

I don't view it as "satanic" or "demonic" these are people that are sincere and seeking God.

I think Paul is clear that false worship does involve the demonic (Deut 32:16-17; Ps 106:35-37; 1 Cor 10:20). So, if I went to such a thing, I would be praying a lot.

Nevertheless, I agree that the people are NOT our enemies in the sense that we should hate them or think less of them. The spiritual forces they are under--not least of which their sinful hearts--is what we are to fight against by the power of the gospel (Ephesians 6).

So, yes we should be both demonstrating love while holding the line of John 14:6. As long as we are clear to our people it is not an interfaith event, then I think it can be a very good thing. It seems like this is exactly what happened, so I find it encouraging!

I think this was an incredibly encouraging event. Treating people of other faiths (Image-bearers) with respect while communicating Biblical truth got a hearing for the gospel. Listening to other people is often the most important step in getting them to listen to you. I would love to see this being repeated all over our country.

Ed,

When I saw your tweet, I was worried this would be just another, typically American evangelical, blog post about the evils of non-Westernized Christianity. As a South Asian man who holds to a reformed theology, but have been born and brought up in Europe, I would identify with American reformed evangelicals on many issues, but have taken exception on many, and am worried deeply about American Christianity turning into its own religion.

I am deeply encouraged by Bob Johnson's sentiments and it gives me great hope for the church in America. Yes, there is some demonic activity in false religions (although I would say Muslims and Jews are by far the mildest, look at Buddhism and Hinduism if you want much more demonic, occultish activity), but the way he has addressed it is dead on.

I have been really worried recently by the misunderstanding of other religions, particularly muslims, by the Western church. Yes, at its heart it is a violent, despicable religion, but its followers are also made in the image of God, and most don't understand what the heart of their religion is. It is purely that, religion, which they have tried to somewhat reconcile with westernised morals, in the western world. This sort of respectful interaction is much more positive than the majority of the way American evangelicals are interacting with muslims at the moment, creating conversation rather than shutting down any avenue of communication.

Thanks for this.

I attended all three events this past weekend and I was excited, nervous and deeply moved. The Jewish and Muslim people were more kind and generous than some of the people in my own congregation. I wept openly as I watched fathers worshiping alongside of their young sons in the Mosque on Saturday. I kept thinking of my own son and how I want those Muslim boys to know my son now and in heaven. I saw more dedication and focus during 7 minutes of prayer from these young boys than I would even expect from my own children. It was moving and eye opening that these people love their family and their god just like I love mine. I pray we raise our children to know and love people from all walks of life so that just maybe, one day, I can sing and dance with those people before the throne of the one true God. It can only happen relationally and with the love of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the interview with Roberts. I'm doing something similar in April, called "The Neighboring Faiths Interviews." On four separate nights I will interview an imam, a rabbi, a Hindu priest and a Buddhist monk. Roberts' stated reasons for his trialogue are very similar to my reasons for my interviews.

Thanks Dr. Stetzer for the Post,

Nothing wrong with witnessing to others, the Bible encourages it, but when we endorse others beliefs by attending or sponsoring their belief style via their church attendance, i think we stepped over the line. I have witnessed to muslims, mormons, and countless others in different faiths, but i would not go nor encourage other Christians to go to their churches/mosque/synagogues. I am all for dialogue though and would never turn down a meeting with anyone from any faith at a neutral location, in fact this saturday i am meeting with two mormon elders discussing early church doctrine. I am for openness, witnessing, but not at the point where you endorse there false beliefs. The example of Paul is a good one, he preaches at athens on mars hill, not in their temples, but outside them. He was pointing out the wrong, but never endorsing the false belief they held as truth. The people in different faiths are not the enemy but there faith is directly opposed to the truth and is sending countless millions to hell. I would worry that these other faiths are not going to really change and that this might just be a waste of time as many that are already enriched in their false faith need more than a Christian showing up for one hour at their church to change, how about befriending these folks, showing Christ in daily life, exhibiting the fruit of the spirit and witnessing like Christ.

I personally don't disagree with you or someone else doing this, but for me and our church i would discourage it, especially for young Christians. I think there are better ways to reach out without attending their pagan or anti-bible views. We can be Christlike and different on purpose to reach others.

Thanks Ed for being awesome and posting stories and conversations like this one.

I think for me alot of this comes down to how much do we trust in truth. If we truly believe that God's word is truth then we should not fear the lies of this world. An Iman can say whatever he likes and should not fear it.

If we fear their words then we must believe that we have not properly discipled our members.

We have the truth and we should not fear the lies of this world. Paul knew that he had the truth and he was not afraid to engage others with it. He was also not afraid to be in their midst or to hear their arguments. We too should have this same kind of boldness. We should do this without compromising the gospel. We should do this with the heart of an evangelist.

@Jon Jackson

This is the sort of American view I meant. No offense meant.

Going to a mosque, gurdwara, temple, synagogue, etc. does not imply endorsement of a view any more than me going to an abortion clinic with my sister implies my endorsement of abortion.

If we preach inerrancy of scripture, Christ crucified, and don't water down our views, we are in no way "endorsing others beliefs"; we are observing them, at most.

this is perhaps the most awesome thing I've read in a long while.

AWESOME! awesome. Would that more churches would do something like this. awesome.

Mr. Other side of the world - you get it because you live there - in the West we still think with the isolationist mentality.

Patrick I'm with you - our truth is strong enough we can engage and not fear. Our laziness at teaching the truth so we can engage is what the real problem is.

@Anon

I am sorry if I came across to harsh, let me rephrase my statement and see if this helps you understand what I mean. No offense taken by the way, I love Jesus and I believe you do as well, this is all good conversation.

I dont have a problem with a Pastor or you doing this, but to encourage your church people to attend as worship when you know you will have some young Christians that may be persuaded is just too dangerous for me. I understand that others have done this and it sounds like a great idea, but when Paul debated in scripture it was never confused by the masses that he was endorsing the other beliefs or even giving the false teachers a chance to preach on his preaching time. My fear is that while we as pastors and christian leaders would understand how this would help reach others, it could be perceived that we are watering down the message. I am all for dialogue and conversation with other religions to help bring them to Christ, but not at the expense of giving them time to promote their beliefs in my pulpit/church.

I re-read the original story and I love the idea of having a sit-down between the faiths and going at it in discussion, but knowing the young Christians we have in our ministry, and how they might be persuaded away from the faith via attendance at another church, i would stay away from this. Now if this was just a pastors dialogue, or a civil forum like Warren did, or a public forum held at a church but not for worship but for information I could agree.

I am still learning, here and throughly enjoy Dr. Stetzers book - Breakingmissionalcode - Thanks for the post and for helping me see another view that I had not seen before.

-Jon

@Jon Jackson

Thanks for your humbling reply.

I would like to think that it is something that needs to be modelled. That the idea of observing without endorsing can be modelled by leaders to young Christians and that it is something that will be learned.

You're absolutely right, we need to be careful not to lead young, immature Christians astray, and I do see your point. However, a conviction of the reality of Jesus being "the way, the truth and the life", should be enough to observe and not be moved to endorse.

I think you are right, this is not for everyone, and I think your use of the word "persuaded" is very timely. This is not about demonic, or satanic forces taking root in peoples lives, it is about weak Christians being persuaded.

Just as I would not encourage an alcoholic to come to the pub with me for a pint, I wouldn't encourage a young believer who may be persuaded to attend such an event. However, I think these young believers are few and far between. Where the Holy Spirit is empowering a life of surrender, such an easy persuasion should not be possible (particularly since most of the "worship" in a mosque would be in a foreign language!!)

Cheers!

@Anon

Agreed. Thanks for the reply. I pray that this event has brought many to Christ and that it furthers His kingdom.

Blessings.

-Jon

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2 Cor. 6:14

Ed,
Thanks so much for the story. It truly is an interesting way to try and reach, Muslims, Jews, etc. I would have to agree with both sides of this discussion. Being a Pastor and knowing the "weakness" of some of our newer Christians, I would be scared to invite those to such an event. But if it was a "sit down" amongst these faiths leaders and our leaders of the one true faith in Jesus Christ, then I would definitely be 100% supportive. I DO NOT see anything wrong with trying a new idea and I hope that many people came to Christ because of this event. Thanks for the input!

Lifting Jesus Higher,
James Washburn

It's not letting me unsubscribe from these comments. I clicked the link in the email notifications, but it just goes to a dead page.

For me I could not do what you have done. It is one thing to Witness to a Catholic it is quite another to invite the Pope to lunch. The difference is this, these leaders of these false religions may think you are a good guy but I suspect the reason is not your message but your actions. There was a controversy recently in the military due to soldiers in Iraq carving Bible verses in their rifles, which was interpreted to mean the weapon was intended to kill Muslims. Your actions will be viewed and I suspect preached as a "Christian" leader endorsing their faith as just as good as yours. That no doubt was not what you said (and I commend you for standing for the truth)but your presence in their religious service could just as easily be a propaganda tool as anything else. As always the "proof is in the pudding" so we will see if this results in anyone being converted and to what.

I have to say that I read through this a couple of times because I wanted to make sure I didn't miss something. The second reading didn't help much because it still said the same thing. I even listened to a portion of the sermon so I could get a true flavor for where this was all going.

Not long ago there was a document signed by many pastors called "The Manhattan Declaration", and this rather looks like round 2 and I have no doubt there will be a few more rounds as we head down the merry path to true ecumenism. I saw from Denise the verse in 2 Cor 6 about being unequally yoked and that was the same verse that came to me as I was reading through this.

I also saw that someone mentioned the dangers to Christians in their infancy and I would have to say that I'm equally concerned for those Christians that seem to be lacking in Biblical discernment altogether. This is dangerous to both groups. Difficult to protect your flock, when you are exposing them to so much false doctrine.

Witnessing to those from other faiths is something that ALL believers should be doing, but endorsing other beliefs (which is what you are effectively doing when you invite your church to attend other churches) is not the same. And, if a pastor says that he did not invite his congregation then he needs to reconsider his thoughts on that. If your church is aware that this is what you're doing, mere curiosity will drive them to go see what's going on wherever you're speaking. What kind of message will they be hearing when they arrive? Not a biblical one you can be sure.

I think we've just about beat the word "relevance" to death and "contextualization" is not far behind it. The enemy's deceits are becoming more subtle as time plods forward but I do know what the Bible says about being friends with the world. In James 4:4 He says, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." For us to have a warm and friendly attitude with this world is to be on friendly terms with God's enemy.

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."

As biblical Christians, we NEED to know this is going to happen yet continue to share the Gospel at every opportunity.

It takes guts to truly engage the Kingdom life and Bob Roberts does it over and over and over again. Thanks for your courage and example Bob!

Biblical - - yes it must be. Jesus, the prostitutes, the tax collectors, drunks, gluttons, non-believers . . . he ran with them all. Biblical - - yes it has to be. ACTS, the story of Paul in synagogues, Mars Hill, and all those places telling people about Jesus. ACTS, with soldiers, political leaders, philsophers, other religious leaders of the day. That's where I want to live - that is Biblical. Isolation? Fear of others?

The fear for others is cloaking your own fear or your view of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit is awful small. God creates, is, and maintains the truth. Truth is never kept in isolation - it comes out.

Our new Christians, some former Muslims, some former atheist, some former lots of other stuff - LOVED this stuff and drove parts of it. The only people that generally get upset with it - old Christians who have a God too small to keep what is his.

By the way - our members now have relationships with Jews and Muslims that they never had before. They're even talking about starting a cooking class together . . . . . What would Paul do? What did Paul do?

Biblical - as in what Paul did in the snagogues, and Mars Hill, etc.,? Biblical - as in who Jesus ran around with, prostitutes, drunks, gluttons? Fear as in for them - or yourself? Our new Christians were our biggest advocates and best evangelist in this. Biblical as in the Gospels and Acts? No wonder we see so few people come to faith in Christ. He's a lot bigger God than we give him credit for.

Did Jesus partake in other religions and practices? No.Did He take time out to listen to their viewpoint on a pagan God? NO! Did Paul take time to hear the message of the heathen? No.

Jesus' message was not "engaging the culture". His message was "foolishness to the perishing" .
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" 1 Cor.1:18

The message is about sin, the sinner in desperate need for Jesus, the Savior who died on the cross for sinful man and rose again on the 3rd day. wow.. rough!

It is soley the Word of God that brings man to repentant faith!
It is the "sword of the spirit" that convicts the soul.

For the *word of God* is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hear.
Heb 4:12

God's Word does not need alterations done by man.Does man believe he has to butter it up to make it palatable to pagans? When has God's Word ever been Insufficient? NEVER.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

Sure one can merrily think "kingdom" but that will not come until Jesus reigns on this earth!
One can "plant" all one wants to but if the message is "christ following" it will lead those to God's Wrath and Judgment. There is No salvation in "following".

Jesus said "Repent and Believe" Mark 1:15. It was not loving people to Himself -despite His love towards mankind.

Here is what went forth BOLDLY:
And they went out, and preached that* men should repent*. Mark 6:12

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: *repent ye, and believe* the gospel. Mark 1:15

Man's Methodologies are NOTHING. These are messages that "tickle the ears"
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" 2 Tim. 4:3

Repent and get back to the sufficient message of the Cross!

Bob Roberts troubling comment:

"I believe what the Scripture says," Roberts said. "Here's what I don't know: I don't know every single thing God is going to do. Eternity is in the hands of God."

From the Dallas Morning News, link below. I know Bob believes Jesus is the only way to God, but why did he say this? The Bible tells us what God is going to do. This comment is leading the listener to think God may have another plan for followers from other religions, even if Bob didn't intend it.

Call me a religious person Bob, but don't pander to the media when the message of the Cross is at stake.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012210dnmetinterfaith.3dfad3e.html

Anika - if you listen to my message and you read the article - I make it very clear I believe in Jesus alone. That comment was made in context of eschatology not with reference to Jesus alone and being the only way. I can see how it could be misinterpreted the way it was positioned in the article. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have spent only about 12 hours, on 2 different occasions listening to Bob talk about his passion for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have thought, listened, discussed, pondered, prayed, and gleaned about this radical approach to ministry....uhem...brace yourself... "go into all the world and make disciples of Jesus Christ." Now THAT is controversial, uncomfortable,and unpredictable. It may require that we move away from the tv, we may miss our favorite sunday school class, and we may have to learn something about muslims and jews.

I thank God for Bob and his obvious passion for Jesus and "radical" belief that God can reach into the hearts of muslims and jews to lead them to repentance and faith.

I pray to God that I will do the same.

One of the difficulties in this type of endeavor is in the field of perception.

For example, the statement,
"I am the way, the truth and the light. No one gets to the Father except by me."

...people often place a lot of emphasis on verses like this, but don't always allow for the full range of meaning.

What does it mean to get to God "by Jesus"...in what way? Sometimes it seems as though Christians want people to say "Jesus is Lord" (even though the Greek also translates to "Jesus is Messiah") like big brothers want to make little brothers say "uncle"...and I'm not saying that as someone who's not a bit guilty of that sort of thing at one time or another.

If a driving instructor tells me that they will help me to drive, does that mean they will press the pedals for me, or steer the wheel for me? Yet the way to pass the test is through the instructor...doesn't mean that the instructor is the test, made the test, or even grades the test. At any rate, do any of those scenarios have anything to do with whether or not I should use my blinker before turning at an intersection? Is the police officer going to give me a break because of who my instructor was?

Here's another example. Imagine we have a boss. He's a really great guy. Let's say I shine shoes for a living. The boss tells me to shine 100 shoes before 5:00, then he leaves. While he's gone, I tell everyone what a great guy he is...that he is the best boss ever. I get a T-Shirt that says "My boss is the best!", and I wear it all day. 5:00 comes, and I haven't done any work...not shined a single shoe. When his boss comes to me to ask about the shoes I was supposed to shine, what will likely happen?

References:

Luke 13:22-30
Luke 18:10-14
Luke 18:18-19

Bob,

Thanks for the clarification. I thought it may have been something taken out of context in the scope of the article.

I am thankful that you remind us that our neighbors need Jesus!

Matt,
You cannot translate kurios (the Greek word for lord in the phrase "Jesus is lord") as 'messiah' - it's lord. Christos (Christ) is the word for messiah.

Jesus is the Messiah, but he is more than just the Messiah--he is also the Lord of all things, YHWH himself. This confession is essential for salvation (Romans 10).

Dear Ed,

Admittedly, I am more evangelicalish than evangelical, and have been writing about these dynamics in my book "It's Really All About God: Reflections of a Muslim Atheist Jewish Christian." These are adjectives to word Christian. Without Islam, Atheism, and Judaism, I would not survive or thrive as a follower of Jesus Christ. The other is there to bless me, and not only to be blessed by what I have to offer.

I very much appreciate and have learned from your perspective and actions. What you is very authentic, Christ-honoring and fun!

Thank you, thank you, thank you,

Samir Selmanovic

In the post above, I meant to say "Dear Bob, " and not "Dear Ed," :)

Samir Selmanovic

Thank you Samir - I'll look forward to reading your book.

Will the Q&A from this event be recorded in any way?

Will the Q&A from this event be recorded in any way?

Samir,

I don't think I understand the title of your book. Is this supposed to be talking about a Christian and these other beliefs rolled into one? Also, I wondered why you wouldn't think you'd thrive or survive as a Christian without these other belief systems. They are false beliefs and have nothing to do with our growth.

Reaching out, making friends and witnessing, yes. But these false beliefs have nothing to offer. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only thing of value. I know I grow every day just having Jesus as Savior, having His Word and the Holy Spirit. The rest flows from that.

Ed,
Thank you for sharing this interview with us. Your resources are both encouraging and broadening for my world-views.

Bob,
I thank God for men like you. I am excited to see your church and its community growth from this trialogue.

As per the interview. I hope others would find that the Truth and the Light that Christ is should not lead us into a posture where we fear other religions/ philosophies/ or ideologies. Fear marked by arrogant isolation and stubborn unlearnedness. Rather we are the light in the darkness. That we should tread upstream in this fallen world moving in full confidence(faith) as we share the gospel. Did not Jesus tell us to "make disciples of all nations"? There seems to be an overwhelming lack of faith in the spiritually young. Does God not look after his people? When did we lose trust in the Spirits regeneration?

You can got to northwoodchurch.org under media and there is a video recorded presentation of the rabbi, the imam and myself. We didn't have it from the mosque and the synagogue.

Ed,

Do you realize the Qur'an's 514 Surah's are open to new revelation by an endless procession of imams who, similar to the pope, are viewed as "on par" with Mohammed. Islam's founder encountered an 'angel' in a cave, who proceeded to dictate the Qur'an and forbade him to leave. As with Joseph Smith, the 'angel' did not leave source material.

Satan comes but to steal, kill, and destroy (John 10:10), and who is beheading people around the world? Moslems (spelling when Jefferson confronted their piracy, kidnap and murdering of Christians). Daniel and Revelation teaches of the beast arising out of the sea (Dan 7:8, Rev. 13:1).

Satan is a liar (John 8:44), and the Qur'an teaches Christians and Jews as dogs and pigs. The moon god, closely resembles the monstrance of Rome, guarantees paradise through martyrdom (Exodus 20:13). Ecumenism or inter-faith are both lies.

Christ is I AM, no other. At death and judgment there shall be no "inter-faith" line, but there will be the tares vs wheat (Mark 13:25) and sheep vs goat (Matt 25:32) which will comprise those who hear the saddest words a soul could receive "Depart from Me!" (Matt 7:2).

Pastors are accountable to Christ for feeding His sheep (John 21:16-17), and protecting them from false teachers (2 Peter 2:1) while holding vigil against ravenous wolves (Mark 7:15).

Ambassadors of Christ are faithful workers rightly dividing (understand) the word (2 Tim 2:15), and seek to teach ALL nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (Matt 28:19)

The wisdom of this world conceived "inter-faith" (1 Cor 3:19). Saints are to be lights, but not mingle with darkness celebrating their hopelessness. Witness earnestly in the streets, but do not go in a Mosque. While at Mars Hill Paul revealed the "unknown God" boldly, he did not worship their version of Him (Acts 17:23).
anon - (do not have account)

Pastor Bob,

Many thanks for inviting our Muslim community to attend your service last Sunday. It was a good start. May God continue to bless you and your family. Amen. I personally had hoped to allay fears and misunderstanding that many Christians have about Muslims and vice versa. I hope this event helped somewhat. I am not sure what is our ultimate goal for our dialogue. In reading many of the responses, I detect that there is still misunderstanding regarding the nature of our dialogue. There is also misunderstanding as to whether or not Muslims understand the gospel or (prophet) Jesus, and it appears that many believe the underpinnings of our dialogue is to ultimately spread the gospel and Christian theology to Muslims by being our friends. Many of the responses show that there are fear of risks of "losing their Christianity" by associating with Muslims and Jews. We all share the same risks (if it were) in this regard. I can assure you that sharing our faith/religion is for understanding only. It amazes me that people are more afraid of other religions and/or people who believe in God than they are of people who encourage their children to drink alcohol or take drugs, and to be sexually promiscuous. I believe you, Pastor Bob, alluded to this in your sermon Sunday. I would encourage everyone to take a second look at the nature of satan and/or demonic provinces. You may find that satan does not have a particular venue, but is fluid in his/her movement throughout our places of worship and in our religious communities and in ourselves. He/she may also,from time to time, visit us or live with us in our religious institutions. He/she can infect our souls with fear, distrust, and worst yet, arrogance. We Muslims believe that of all the things that God hates, arrogance is on top of the list. It may be that arrogance is the precursor to all other ailments of our human condition. As my wife so aptly put it, "arrogance is when you are ignorant and proud of it." I pray that our relationship is one that is aimed at working together to improve our community, and ultimately making our nation stronger. We have too many challenges in this land to argue over theology. If anything I have said has offended anyone, I ask your forgiveness for that definitely is not my intent. May God protect and bless us all. Amen.

Mustafaa Carroll

Mustafa my friend, don't let this bother you, it's really good - here's why:

1. Dr. Stetzer is a leading Christian theologian and researcher. He allowed this to be on his blog because he knows this conversation needs to be had. He would be worth you and I gathering young pastors and imams and letting him explain some of the issues of Christianity and you invite an Islamic Scholar to do the same. You don't have to agree with him to get along . . . I should know!

2. Some of the comments that people would post would drive out the extremist on both sides. Not all of these comments are reflective of mainstream Christians.

3. Some in using the Bible, don't keep it in context - as with other books - people can take a verse and take it totally out of context for their own personal agenda.

4. This is a frightening conversation for many American Christians. Historically Americans went to the rest of the world to tell the world about Jesus - and we here assumed there was very little out there. Not only did we not know other religions - we didn't even know people who believed those other religions so there was no opportunity for relationship. Some people believe only what they see in the media - so don't get a true global picture. I also believe God is bigger than some of these people would believe. I believe in something called the Sovereignty of God, it means God created all and is glorified in all and will be glorified by all and as such is in control of all things - there are no accidents or mistakes he can make. It's similar to "enshallah."

5. Multi-faith says the basis of our relationship is respect - not agreement. In the service you heard me say I want the whole world to be Christian - the Imam said he wants the whole world to Muslim. It is because we both believe we believe the truth. The question is not do I want someone to be a Christian, in my religion with the Great Commision and yours with the Dauwa that is part of our Holy Books. The question is can I love you without an agenda. Jesus healed, related, and went places to people he considered sick, evil, demonic, etc., and he loved them all - Paul did the same.

6. I will always be your friend. I believe you will be mine as well. You want me in heaven and I want you in heaven. The greatest love you can show me is that you love me enough to be honest about what you believe and love me even if I disagree - the same back at you from me.

We have come a long way - and we have a longer way to go - but we are moving in the right direction. I admire and respect you Mustafa - your wife is right about ignorance.

Mustafa - Salaam Alikeim

Tragically, due to inserts strategically placed in large newspapers last year, certain segments of America are deceived about what the Qur'an actually says. Do not rely on the media, politicians, or what imams speak in English, rather, heed what is spoken in Arabic.

The Qur'an teaches them that all land a Moslem has stepped on is to be claimed for Allah, just look at the U.K. Research for yourselves, speak to a Coptic Christian, or a Lebanese Christian, any Moslem that has sought asylum in the U.S. Discover how their conversion from Islam forces them to flee for their very lives, forsaking all. Oh, the riches that are theirs in Christ! (Matthew 19:29).

Mustafaa, it is my greatest joy to correct your misconceptions! It is not fear that dwells within Christians, but an overflowing fount of Living Water (John 7:38). Fear is of Satan, and he utilizes it to torment unbelievers into imagining they must "do" rather than "faith" (trust). No man is righteous, apart from regeneration in Jesus Christ and even then we sin, but trust that He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us (1 John 1:9)!

However, Mustafaa, you are correct that many misquote Scripture. Of late the most guilty of this are pastors in America who print books filled with their wisdom for purposes of seducing men to follow them (Acts 20:30). That is what religion does, and traditions of men. Faith in Jesus Christ is a relationship between Father and son or daughter. It is love between sheep and Shepherd.

Some Moslems are willing to die for Allah, and that breaks our heart but, more so, the heart of Jesus (Ezekiel 33:11). Christians will die for their faith, because men take only our life but our souls are untouchable (Matthew 10:28). Our eyes close and open to behold the face of God (2 Corinthians 5:8)!

Islam says Mohammed was a prophet, and he died and imams now continue to teach. Jesus Christ was not a prophet, though He spoke prophecy - and fulfilled to the minutest detail every prophecy written of Him thousands of years before His birth - He is God. His Word teaches and saves to this day, and believers need only to read it themselves not look to a man (John 16:13). Jesus said, "I AM God, and there is none other" (Isaiah 44:6, 18). This alone is worthy of conversation, therefore, inter-faith ecumenical movements result in nothing but confusion, which is also of Satan (1 Corinthians 4:33).

One last thing, Mustafaa, you need not fret over a Christian "losing" their salvation, it is an impossibility. Any false convert, or mere professor, can not lose that which they do not possess. Moreover, it amazes me that those of a religion which teaches their children to hate, behead people, and so despise the female gender as to force them to fully cover all but their eyes causes one to wonder if it is not, perhaps, motivated by men who are incapable of controlling their own lusts. If you are not responsible for these things, Jesus knows, and it is pleasing to us. Christian parents teach their children to love others more than self, remain chaste until marriage at an age in which they are matured and prepared to keep the home. Typically, twenty or more. It is unconscionable to me that Islam permits child brides as young as age 10, as one is not yet fully developed to have many children.

Only through repentance of sin, death to self, and faith in Jesus Christ who lived sinless, died, and resurrected the third day (1 Corinthians 15:4, 2 Corinthians 5:15), to purchase pardon for sinners, does one truly live. He is the only path to eternal life (Mark 1:15), all others who make such claims are but thieves and robbers (John 10:8). Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture ... I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep (John 10:9, 11).

Jesus Christ is Lord of Hosts (Psalm 24:10), and He alone is the King of Glory! Prior to accusing me of 'taking Scripture out of context' kindly read the Bible verses first. It is wise to read the Bible for oneself before thinking they know everything by reading another book.

Carrie,

Thank you for your comments. I generally like to warn people from getting caught up in a "religious wild goose chase" when trying to understand the current state of affairs. Were it not for 9/11 and other related conflicts in the Middle East, which is seen by many as strategic to world interest, particularly energy resources, we may not be having this conversation
at all. Definitely, the issues between Muslims, Christians, and Jews are predominantly due to the age old issues that we human beings have always fought over ... that is land, resources, power, etc. Religion is merely the cloak we wear to justify our bad behavior and wars.

Whether we speak Arabic or English, Hebrew or Spanish, people with poor understanding can always use the scriptures in our various holy books towards their own agenda. For example, I remember some Christians who believed that black people were descendants of Ham and had interpreted that God cursed Ham, and thereby also cursed Ham's descendants. They used their interpretation to justify slavery and oppression of black people in these United States of America. The fact is, no one group has the market on bad behavior or oppression acted out on others using justification of their holy books. This is definitely a fact and part of our American history as well.

Carrie, I have now been involved with Arabic and Arabic speaking Muslims more than half my life. Fortunately, I have not read the interpretations you have put forth, nor have I heard them uttered from any of the Masjids I have attended throughout this country. I do know that Arab Christians and Muslims are afflicted with some of the same illnesses that exist in our society - that is prejudice and hatred towards each other to the extent their hatred causes them to tell untruths about each others religion. Question: Would it be fair if I called you to account for every bad thing a Christian did? I doubt that you would feel that's fair, but whether you think it's fair or not, it is impossible for you to account for the bad deeds and wrongdoing for others. As my grandmother used to say "every pot must sit on it's own bottom.

The Qur'an does not teach that "all land a Muslim has stepped on is to be claimed for Allah". You may remember from Pastor Bob's sermon "Allah" is the Arabic word for "God" ... it literally means "the worshiped". Since it appears that you may know some Arab Christians, the same word, Allah, is used in a Bible written in Arabic. My first Arabic teacher was a Lebanese Christian. Further, God does not need anyone to claim anything, because everything in the universe already belongs to Him.

It is unfortunate, to say the least that people have had to flee for their lives because of ignorance, prejudice or arrogance. Islam makes no compulsion in religion. Holy Qur’an Chapter 2, Verse 256: “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

In Islam, Jews and Christians specifically are regarded as "peoples of the book", and are to be respected as such. Qur’an Chapter 2. Verse 62: “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”.

I am sure there are "some (misguided) Muslims" somewhere willing to "die for Allah (God), but any rightly guided Muslim understands that Allah (God) does not need us to die for him. Muslims are permitted to fight and to die against oppression and to protect their families,their property and themselves. Muslims are forbidden to begin or start a fight. Qur’an 2:190 & 193:“fight in the cause of God Against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo, God loveth not the aggressors".

“ And fight them until there is no more oppression or persecution and until justice and faith in God prevails. But if they desist, let there be no hostility except against those wrongdoers who practice oppression". You may note it says "Those wrongdoers..." This also includes those Muslims who oppress.

Carrie, definitely I am not fretting over a Christian losing their salvation. I was merely responding to some of the concerns I read in the other posts.

Finally, Islam does not "teach children to hate, or behead people ..." no more than Christianity teaches people to hang, lynch or dismember people. Carrie, it would be helpful that before you make assumptions as to why Muslim women cover, you have a golden opportunity to speak with them first-hand. If nothing else can be gained from this dialogue, hopefully you may have a better perspective other than it's because women are "despised". Please note that many Jewish and Christian women also cover out of humility before God.

In Islam, God understands human nature better than we understand ourselves. Chastity for men and women is protected on many levels. Dress is only one way. Their is no protection from satan except through God almighty. Therefore, if one does not understand the underpinnings of dressing modestly, one is subject to do whatever he/she likes regardless.

Men and women are capable of controlling their lusts if they have God-consciousness through submitting to God's will and not their own. To say that men are "incapable of controlling their own lusts" plays to stereotypes of men, and also connotes that all women control their lust. In either case, we can find enough men and women to disprove these stereotypes. Further, if we take an honest look at our society, we see that a significant portion, although they may have been taught to abstain from pre-marital sex, are not abstaining. Islam does not permit child brides at 10, but culturally (pre 21st Century), and in many parts of the world people still marry as young as 14, 15, or 16. Approximately 50 years ago this was also common practice in America, and 100 years ago it was the status quo. My own grandmothers were married at 15 and 16. A lot of this was motivated by our life expectancy (47.3 years), agricultural societal norms, influences of belief/religion, lack of effective birth control, and laws that set age limits on marriage. My maternal grandparents married at 19 (grandfather) and 15 (grandmother) and remained married until he passed away at 101 years old some 82 years later. All Muslims are encouraged to marry, and marriage is the only lifestyle permissible for people to have intimate relations.

Please understand, I have in fact read the Bible for myself. I continue to read it and the Torah as well. One of our articles of faith is acceptance of and belief in all previous books sent by God. This includes the Torah, the Bible, the Injil (Gospel) and the Psalms (of Daud or David). Many practicing Muslims are strict monotheists, and Islam (which means submission to the will of God) forbids us from associating partners with God. Thereby is the major nerve between Muslims and Christians today. Just as you believe that salvation is through recognizing Christ as the literal "son of God", Muslims believe that God is one (tauhid = the oneness of God)and associating partners is a major sin. I might add that Islam and Muslims are not the first nor the only to believe this. Many of the early Christians also believe it. In fact, the first schism of the Church was about the divinity of Christ. This was argued at Constantine and Opel between the Bishop at Constantine and the Pope from Rome. We, Muslims, believe that is what was meant by the 1st commandment in the Ten Commandments.

Carrie, in my humble opinion, the goal of multi-faith or interfaith is not to confuse nor convert one to the other. It is merely to build relationships so that we can have mutual respect, work for the common good, and at least understand one another. Each individual has to decide for himself or herself what they want to personally get from our dialogue, and whether or not they want to be involved.

For me, I have no interest in converting nor being converted. I am not particularly fond of being called to answer for the misdeeds of members of my community nor proving myself. However, I do want to help provide a good and holistic understanding of Islam and Muslims whether one agrees or not. This is what I understood the purpose of our collaboration to be according to our multi-faith weekend. I believe Pastor Bob did an excellent job of explaining this during his sermon last Sunday.

I pray that Almighty God touches each one of us to seek to understand and be understood, and to increase our patience. Amen. God bless.

Mustafaa

Mustafaa. Thank you for your comments and the attitude with which you gave them. I am a passionate follower of Jesus Christ, but I am embarrassed by how a fellow believer has treated you with such arrogance in his/her comments. As I am sure you are aware, our Scriptures teach us to value humility in our relationships with others. In this regard, you are an example from whom many of us Christians could learn.

Bob,

I am very concerned about the disparaging remarks you made regarding older Christians vs. young Christians and their response to the muslim and Jewish guests at your service.

You conveyed your impression that older Christians were not as eager to embrace them. Perhaps that is because the seasoned Christians have gained wisdom and discernment through studying His Word and have clear instruction as to how they are to approach others outside the Christian faith.

The Word is very clear in defining how to obtain salvation (Romans 10:9), how to walk in wisdom toward outsiders (Colossians 4:5-6), to teach and admonish one another in all wisdom (Colossians 3:16) to keep away from those who walk irresponsibly (2 Thessalonians 3:6) to warn him as a brother (2 Thessalonians 3:15) to not teach other doctrine or promote empty speculations about God's plan (1 Timothy 3-4) and to pray for everyone, as it pleases God (1 Timothy 2:1-4). Anyone who teaches anything else beside the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ is "considered conceited, understanding nothing, but having a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words" (1 Timothy 6:4). This results in "quarreling, slanders, evil suspicions, and constant disagreement among men whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth" (1 Timothy 6:4-5).

New Christians, that is those who are being fed milk because of their spiritual infancy, are subject to stumbling because they have not grown in wisdom. Peter tells us to make every effort to supplement faith with goodness, knowledge, self-control, endurance, godliness with brotherly affection, and love. "The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted.." (2 Peter 1:9) Christians in their spiritual infancy are subject to stumbling and can be easily swayed by deceptive doctrines. That is why he warns us in 2 Peter 1:8: "Be sober! Be on the alert! Your adversary the Devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour."

Jesus warned His believers about the world. "Look, I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16) We are to approach people in kindness and humility while being armed with the knowledge of His Word, so that we may reflect His light in darkness. (2 Corinthians 4:6)

It is through our living testimony, a life grounded in His clear teachings of the living Word, that many may see Jesus and come to faith in Christ.

Ed,

All of the quotes which you presented only support your position as long as people assume that Jesus wants us to build a "christian fortress" and deny entry to outsiders. This is not our instruction.

To worship the image of Christ without imitating his actions...isn't that idolatry?

Christ saved his most stern comments not for those outside the faith, but for those who were the keepers of the religious system under which he was born. Somehow Christians feel that simply saying the name of Jesus makes them impervious to error and arrogance.

It is just as possible that Christian doctrines are "deceptive doctrines". "Spiritual infancy" has nothing to do with seniority. Because someone writes every day doesn't make them Shakespeare.

"quarreling, slanders, evil suspicions, and constant disagreement among men whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth"

...how is it that you do not see evil suspicions in your own comments?

Sorry, I should have addressed my comment to CB

I think I may have been misunderstood - it wasn't that "old people" don't get it - Mazhar Mahloui is one of my teachers - and he's a Jesus follower well into his 70's. Like the reformation, it was too much for some who had built a life out of an old system - so they couldn't move forward. The Guttenburg (sp) press, and global travel on ships to the New World redefined it all. That's all I was saying - new ideas don't always fit in old containers - Jesus said that about old wine and new wine. But Sir, your confidence in an old approach to a disconnected world is overwhelming and sad. Just being old doesn't make you righteous or wise.

Matthew,

Christ came for all sinners and paid our penalty on a cross once and for all. There is no "Christian fortress" that denies those who truly seek Him, repent, and ask Him to come into their hearts. He awaits the invitation to open the door. " Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me." (Revelation 3:20) Jesus also said," I assure you: Anyone who doesn't enter the sheep pen by the door but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber.(John 10:1) So Jesus said again, " I assure you: I am the door of the sheep. (John 10:7)

I do not worship an image but rather a risen Savior. No other religion offers a Father who sacrificed His one and only Son, who was resurrected on the third day and is now seated at the right hand of God.

As for the seasoned Christian--one who is well grounded in the Word--the only "doctrine" that matters is what Christ taught and which is preserved in the inerrant Word of God.
"But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn't act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand." (Matthew 7:26) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35)

In closing "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town." (Matthew 10:14)

CB,

I appreciate that you have included so many verses. Would you please show me the verse in which Jesus himself indicates that people should worship him?

If people are doing something that Jesus himself did not say, and which he himself did not do, wouldn't that also be "entering the sheep pen by the door but climbs in some other way"?

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

The first and greatest commandment...the very first line clearly says, "The Lord our God is one Lord". How many? One. Three-ish one? No. One, yet kinda three? No. One. Kinda Jesus, but kinda God too? No.

From my perspective, it's those who advocate the Trinity who are "climbing in some other way". Show me the verse that Jesus even mentions the word "trinity", or tells anyone to worship him. I can show many in which he tells people to worship God, and that Jesus also worships God.

Jesus is the way by which God redeemed humanity. What tribute does it pay to Jesus if we worship Jesus instead of who he told us to worship?

Again, show me the verse in which Jesus declares that we should worship him.

If it does not exist, then I say such action would be entering the house via the window or the chimney.

Mark 12:29 says to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength...not 1/3 of either of these.

Do you suggest that those who recognize Jesus as Messiah, and who worship God...that they are misguided?

"Would you please show me the verse in which Jesus himself indicates that people should worship him?"

John 8:24, Jesus says unless you believe I am the LORD God Himself you'll die in your sins c.f. John 8:58-59 and 10:30

CB, not quite correct.

In context, the verse John 8:24 says

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

Make sure to check the original text against the English translations.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=8&v=24&t=KJV#conc/24

He was referring to the previous verse...that I am from above and you are from below..if you don't believe that I am, then you will die in your sins.

also, I and the Father are one...that does not say "worship me", does it? Actually, Jesus never said the word "Father", because he didn't use English at all. What he said first recorded as "pä-tā'r" in Greek, which has meaning of "Transmitter or originator of something"...it's just as correct to say that Jesus is a flawless relay for the will of God.

My television is a perfect transmitter of whose likeness appears on it. (pardon the simple example) Let's say I'm watching Sesame Street. If I point to it and say "who is that?" And someone says "Big Bird"...do I take my television around and tell people that it is Big Bird?

Yet at the time of the transmission, both answers would be correct...that is Big Bird...and that is a television....which is why Jesus said, I am the 'huios' of God.
People honored him as such, but not as God.

If we are one, does it mean that you are me? If a sandwich is one, does it mean that the bread is meat?

Matthew,

1) I'm not CB; and 2) the Greek is crystal clear in John 8:24 that Jesus is telling us He's the One Who spoke out of the burning bush is Exodus 3.

John 8:58 further shows us that the people to whom Jesus was speaking, and who spoke the language, knew this is what Jesus was saying.

That being said, while you are more than welcome to believe whatever you want to, but the text says what it says.

I'm looking at John 8:24, and I see nothing about a burning bush.

Look to John 8:28.."but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. "

Who is the speaker here? Who is the originator of the speech?

In John 8:58, he speaks of the divine decree which from the beginning of time, he was ordained and anointed to be the Messiah, 'huios' of God. As his present tense, he references the past. In the past, his future present tense was ordained.

If my parents decide (before I was born) that their firstborn son will graduate from high school at all costs . Then before I was born, a high school graduate I am.

Matthew,

As I said, you're welcome to your beliefs, and I'm not going to argue with you.

The historic orthodox Christian faith, to use cult expert Dr. Walter Martin's term, has always taught from the Scriptures that Jesus is the LORD God Himself in human flesh.

John 8:58-59 sheds light upon John 8:24 in that Jesus uses the divine Name "I Am" in both cases. The Jews realize this immediately and reach for stones to stone Him.

The only reason they would have had to stone Him under their Law would have been for blasphemy. In other words they knew that Jesus was equating Himself with God (see-John 5:18).

And it was the LORD God Who spoke out of the burning bush in Exodus 3. I'm not going to say anything further because the full Deity of Jesus Christ is a cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith.

Whether one believes Jesus is God in human flesh is between them and Him. And so, I'll just leave it at this, k. :-)

Matthew,

As I said, you're welcome to your beliefs, and I'm not going to argue with you.

The historic orthodox Christian faith, to use cult expert Dr. Walter Martin's term, has always taught from the Scriptures that Jesus is the LORD God Himself in human flesh.

John 8:58-59 sheds light upon John 8:24 in that Jesus uses the divine Name "I Am" in both cases. The Jews realize this immediately and reach for stones to stone Him.

The only reason they would have had to stone Him under their Law would have been for blasphemy. In other words they knew that Jesus was equating Himself with God (see-John 5:18).

And it was the LORD God Who spoke out of the burning bush in Exodus 3. I'm not going to say anything further because the full Deity of Jesus Christ is a cardinal doctrine of the Christian faith.

Whether one believes Jesus is God in human flesh is between them and Him. And so, I'll just leave it at this, k. :-)

"I am" is the most basic acknowledgment of existence.

If Jesus wanted us to believe that he was God, why would go through all the cryptic language in order to convey it? Would he not just say "I am God. Worship me."?

What he does say is "I am 'huios' of God. Worship God."

Again, first two commandments, from Jesus' mouth...

1. God is one. Worship only God, with all your heart, mind, and strength.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

The rest is conjecture. The reason why many Jews and Muslims won't accept evangelism is because the mainstream Christian doctrine has added some other words like Trinity (found nowhere in the Bible) to cement a particular view.

"Son of God" is not enough for them..."Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", not enough for them either. They choose to add terms which appear nowhere in scripture, and call them Gospel, which they simply are not.

These things were decided by vote of church leaders in the 4th-6th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

It was an attempt by Rome to create universal Christian doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Comparison_between_Creed_of_325_and_Creed_of_381

Here's a good exercise... add up the sum of the first six roman numeral characters (I V X...) ...let me know what that adds up to. I'll give you a hint..it's six-hundred-sixty-something.

Matthew,

You asked the following: Would you please show me the verse in which Jesus himself indicates that people should worship him?

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

~Matthew 12:8 (KJV)
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
~Mark 2:28
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
~Luke 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The Hebrew word for sabbath is mishbath, shabbath, and shabbathown. The Greek word for sabbath is prosabbaton and sabbaton.

It is a day of atonement, a day to abstain from work and rest.
~Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
~Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
~Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

The Lord commanded us to keep the Sabbath and to keep it holy. It is a time of spiritual refreshment, a time to reflect upon Him, the Son of God, who was flesh and blood and who worshipped His Father God.

~Matthew 12:8 (KJV)
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
~Mark 2:28
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
~Luke 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

He's telling us that we are lord of the sabbath. We are sons of men. "If a sheep falls into a well on the sabbath, do you not get it out?"

Lord does not mean God, it means superior.

Mat 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

(notice he says 'him' and not 'me')

Jesus is Lord of all mankind in the sense that he submits fully to God, and therefore is greater than us all (the least among you shall be greatest). There is no differentiation between Jesus' actions and God's will.

I'm still looking for the word 'Trinity' in the bible, though. Somebody help me find it.

Wow! And the goals included mutual understanding and respect! Common ground for common good! Wow! Hijacking the blog! The wrath of Man! Righteousness that doesn't seem quite right!

I am meeting for the next many weeks with believers who will attempt to help equip me to better serve Him as I try to learn skills to serve my Muslim and Jewish community more effectively, with more grace, and more knowledge. I wonder what that will bring!

Somehow, it seems to me, the Gospel that produces love for God and love for people in an obedience wrought by faith alone in all nations and all peoples for His Glory seems darkened by some of this. But no, maybe it is this very meeting of Wrath and Love in the cross of Christ, that justifies ungodly people, justly, ...maybe that Glory is more clarified by "conversations" like these.

Sorry if I come across as rude.

To keep it in context... imagine if you will this scenario...

All of Islam and Judaism is waiting in the wings to accept the Gospel, except for the use of the word "Trinity" (which doesn't appear in the text). All of the wars on earth are hinging on this single word.

It's a scenario.

Fairly important, it seems. It's beyond my understanding why people would rather allow hundreds of thousands of people to die in war ... rather than re-evaluate the use of a single word in their understanding. It baffles me.

I'd prefer a blog discussion (heated or not) to a war any day of the week. I have a profound respect for someone willing to voice their beliefs in the face of "opposition". To be clear, everyone participating in this discussion who backs their understanding of the Gospel is on the same side anyway. You're right, though, that the kindest successful path is the best...emphasis on 'successful'.

...to refine each other as a silversmith refines silver.

1Cor 14:25-32

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=14&v=30&t=KJV#conc/25

Randy, I'm not sure what you mean, honestly.
I can assure you that my goal is edification. Thanks for your input.

I just want to equip people with an understanding of why monotheistic religions struggle with common Christian doctrines... and also a view of the gospel which will be accepted.

I've already cleared my view of Father, Son and Holy Spirit with Tovia Singer.
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/

Try both approaches with him, or with any Islamic or Jewish source.

I'm struggling to show that there is a gospel which passes cleanly between these distinctions, and retains integrity. This seems immensely valuable to me.

PS - Catholics are Christians, too. :)

Matthew,

Let's try it like this.
I am looking for help, growth, insight, grace, understanding, perspective on Muslim-Jewish-Gospel Centered Christian interaction and intertwined community. I would love to bookmark great resources to refer back to and pass on.

I don't find it edifying to insert a theological rabbit trail regarding an attack or defense of the historical orthodoxy of the Triune Godhead. I don't see this as the intent of this blog. It just doesn't seem to fit, and your point may be better served in a different context.

Maybe I just did not see your train coming and am having trouble with what appears to me to be a confusing context.

But then again, that is just me.
The "Wow!" for me is the amazing way, and the amazing intensities these issues bring...to discussions of grace and love and gospel and truth. Walking through the comments, seeing the targets on Ed and Bob from what you'd think was friendly fire, just "Wow!"

Are we really ready to be as mature as Christ would have us be in our love for Him, for one another, and for those we are sent to? I am certainly being challenged to trust Him to love better through me as I walk in Him.

I do thank you for responding to me, Matt. I was just basically intending my post to be an expression of how the discussion left me personally, overall. It's my first comment of this sort. I really did not expect to be heard.

But, if you or anyone else is listening: I think we can honor Him, and one another, and the subject at hand, better than what I was receiving. But maybe my receptor is too sensitive or broken for virtual Christianity.

Randy,

I would absolutely love to be ale to provide you with that link.

From my perspective though, we need to create that website. I've not yet discovered it. I'm working on it, and if you know of anyone willing to pitch in, would love the help.

Perhaps this is the way that such sites are initiated.

My point regarding the 'triune godhead' is to demonstrate two things:

1. That it is doctrine, not scripture
2. To demonstrate that there are other ways of interpreting the scripture with full integrity.

The importance of point #2 is that it strengthens the case for Jesus as Messiah in the context of both Islam and Judaism.

For example, if we agree that the Greek gospel is the foundation of our translations, for example, then it creates a space for agreement across these lines. At such a point, various proofs could be demonstrated to show that it holds up to integrity tests of those religions. This would allow those within Islam to propose that the Gospel in Greek language form be accepted (after reasonable process by scholars).

If this were to occur, then it could be argued that this is new revelation, which would enable it to be a foundation for sharia law, thus ending the war. Ending of the war would then cause the opportunity for world peace, which would then fulfill the Jewish requirement for Jesus to be recognized as Messiah.

It's one possible track of success.

This is one organization which has offered unspecified support.
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

Thanks,

Matthew

Randy,

You may also find this to be valuable:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_10_07_letter.pdf

Respectfully,

Matthew